16-02-2002 03:20									#1
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Only time I ever played CtP2 was when I borrowed it a while back for about an hour or two, so I've got a few simple questions.

1) From a single player standpoint, how's the AI after using mods or whatever it is you people seem to cook up on a regular basis? How's it compare with civ2/SMAC/civ3/etc in diplomacy and overall decision making?

2) Is MAD in there?

3) What kind of gameplay improvement if any is there from civ2? Is there a big difference? (worth the $19.95 anyway )

	16-02-2002 04:09									#2
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well, I'm playing Craddle and the AI is doing its own thing - fighting wars,being diplomatic etc. It seems to do the job and i've recently had to start a game on medium difficulty(i tried impossible and...well it was!) just to get a bit further. The balance of the game is very good and i'm having a lot of fun - so that can't be bad.As to MAD, i haven't invented gunpowder yet!(it starts in 7000b.c) so i might have to wait a while . How does it compare to civ2 etc, well it is civ isn't it? In my opinion it has better graphics,better diplomacy(i never played SMAC),but at the same time its not the ultimate civ game(non of them are),but its pretty close and with the great modding guys there will always be newer and better versions.Really the best thing i can say is give it a go(for your $19 you get alot of game with all the free mods) - it is much improved over the origonal release.

Last edited by child of Thor on 16-02-2002 at 04:19

	16-02-2002 05:16									#3
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The modded AI really is quite good at waging wars, conducting deplomacy, expanding, and generally being a challenge to the other players. If I had to list some complants it would be that the AI still doesn't really kill off that many of the other AIs (they prefer to go after the humans) and it won't launch truly massive invasions of other contents all at one time.

That said the AI is still very competetive and, unlike Civ3, you can always choice to play against other humans if you feel you need more of a challenge. There are several features offered in CTP2 that aren't in the other civ games MAD is only one of them. PW, an indepth diplomacy and trade set up, unit stacking, an advanced combat system with combined arms, more of just about everything (civs, unit types, gov types, techs...etc), great hidden units (like slavers, abolitionists,, lawyers, televangilists... etc), and a truly easy to use interface.

Try to say the same about other Civ style games...

	16-02-2002 05:32									#4
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quote: well, I'm playing Craddle and the AI is doing its own thing - fighting wars,being diplomatic etc. It seems to do the job and i've recently had to start a game on medium difficulty(i tried impossible and...well it was!) just to get a bit further. The balance of the game is very good and i'm having a lot of fun - so that can't be bad

Do the mods alter the graphics at all? They look fine to me, just curious.

quote: There are several features offered in CTP2 that aren't in the other civ games MAD is only one of them. PW, an indepth diplomacy and trade set up, unit stacking, an advanced combat system with combined arms, more of just about everything (civs, unit types, gov types, techs...etc), great hidden units (like slavers, abolitionists,, lawyers, televangilists... etc), and a truly easy to use interface.

How does MAD work? Does the AI have the ability to use those features well (stacking, eco terrorism, nukes, etc)? In SMAC the computer almost never fired off an ICBM or used a supply crawler...probably too hard to program.

	16-02-2002 05:45									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Do the mods alter the graphics at all? They look fine to me, just curious.

Some do and some don't. Using SLIC you can add new units, change existing units (including graphics and unit abilities), and add new unit types or delete existing unit types. In essance you can use SLIC to change ANYTHING and I do mean absolutely anything in the game. That's what makes CTP2 such a good plateform for modders.

quote: How does MAD work? Does the AI have the ability to use those features well (stacking, eco terrorism, nukes, etc)? In SMAC the computer almost never fired off an ICBM or used a supply crawler...probably too hard to program.

You use MAD by pretargeting an enemy city with each of your Nukes; thus if the enemy tries to nuke your cities or your allies cities then all of your nukes will automatically be launched against their predetermined targets. I almost never make more then a few nukes because the AI is diligent in using the MAD feature, however, humans can still be better then the AI.

The AI will divid it's nukes up against every none allied civ that is also a nuclear power. A good human player can better decid who is the most likely to attack his empire so he can mass all of his nukes against that one civ and over well the AI's MAD response. That said you will still lose several cities...

	16-02-2002 06:05									#6
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quote: The AI will divid it's nukes up against every none allied civ that is also a nuclear power. A good human player can better decid who is the most likely to attack his empire so he can mass all of his nukes against that one civ and over well the AI's MAD response. That said you will still lose several cities...

Do nukes erase an entire city on impact?

quote: You use MAD by pretargeting an enemy city with each of your Nukes; thus if the enemy tries to nuke your cities or your allies cities then all of your nukes will automatically be launched against their predetermined targets. I almost never make more then a few nukes because the AI is diligent in using the MAD feature, however, humans can still be better then the AI.

Is there an SDI defense improvement?

	16-02-2002 06:07									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Some do and some don't. Using SLIC you can add new units, change existing units (including graphics and unit abilities), and add new unit types or delete existing unit types. In essance you can use SLIC to change ANYTHING and I do mean absolutely anything in the game. That's what makes CTP2 such a good plateform for modders.

None of the mods change the existing graphics. MedMod and Cradle add units, which means new pictures and sprites, but no changing existing stuff. (Cradle adds a couple of tile improvements too).

Btw, SLIC is not necessary to change units, etc. That can be done entirely through text files, making CtP2 very simple to start modding.
SLIC is merely a way to add more advanced concepts and effects, such as the the militia effect in MM2, or the natural disasters in Cradle.

	16-02-2002 06:13									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Do nukes erase an entire city on impact?

2/3 of the population, and using Dale's Capture City Script, ~1/2 of the buildings.

quote: Is there an SDI defense improvement?

No. You can add one if you want.

	16-02-2002 07:37									#9
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How exactly would I go about doing that? (adding improvements) And what's the range of nukes?

Thanks for the link btw

Last edited by Wiglaf on 16-02-2002 at 08:12

	16-02-2002 08:08									#10
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One more thing: is there a scenario editor that allows for the placement of cities/units/etc? And a real world map with realistic civ start locations?

	16-02-2002 16:10									#11
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Well, since you don't have the game yet (I think), step-by-step instructions for adding a city improvement aren't much good to you but in large outlines it involves opening a text file (buildings.txt), copying an existing entry and changing it's name and properties. You'll also need to make some minor changes to two other text files (to set the graphics and in-game name and stuff), add a picture to the graphics folder (lots of premade stuff can be found in the database or you can make some yourself) and optionally add a Great Library (=Civilopedia, also a (huge) textfile) entry. An experienced modder can, presuming (s)he knows exactly what (s)he wants, add a new building/unit/advance/whatever in 2-3 minutes; a less experienced modder will need some more time of course but it's still not hard to do.

I think Nukes have a range of 20 in all mods as well as the original game, but this can of course easily be changed in a text file if you want.

quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf One more thing: is there a scenario editor that allows for the placement of cities/units/etc?

Hey, just because Civ3 is a total screw-up in this respect, doesn't mean CtP2 is! There's a very powerful in-game scenario editor that offers some fairly advanced map making tools (I'm not much of mapmaker myself so I have no idea what the industry standard is but CtP2 probably meets or even exceeds the standard) and of course it also allows you to place/remove units/cities/goody huts/tile improvements/goods/etc from the map, set starting positions, add/remove advances/PW/gold from civs, add/remove wonders/buildings from cities, etc...

There are also 3 scenarios in the standard game (Alexander the Great, 7 Samurai, Nuclear Detente) and a 4th official Activision scenario (WWII) can be downloaded from Apolyton. A number of fan-made scenarios are also available from the database here at 'Poly and a couple more are in the making (but mods are far more popular than scenarios in this game). In addition to that there is a world map in the standard game but it's IMHO not terribly good, I think several (better) fan-made world maps are available from Apolyton (plus dozens of other maps and a really powerful fan-made map making utility).

	16-02-2002 18:50									#12
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Umm.... I went to check there was a ProtectFromNukes flag in buildings.txt, which there is... So I wondered why...

It appears there is a SDI improvment, though it is called Anti-Ballistic-Missiles or something.

	17-02-2002 10:01									#13
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There is a SDI improvement. You can go to cheat mode and add it to your cities (at least I think... I'm not infront of the game right now).

	17-02-2002 16:03									#14
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You're right, Ben. This improvement is not mentioned in the building section of the reference chart or the strategy guide, but it does (briefly) get mentioned in the tech tree/advance section of both (and it actually exists in the game of course), very odd... Yet another (minor) screw-up by Activision, I suppose.

	18-02-2002 00:06									#15
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Thanks for all the help

I guess the only question left is - with Cradle, etc, is the AI any good at overall decision making and using the various features and victory paths? Better than civ2/civ3?

	18-02-2002 01:39									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Thanks for all the help I guess the only question left is - with Cradle, etc, is the AI any good at overall decision making and using the various features and victory paths? Better than civ2/civ3?

I think you should worry about how to survive at first in Cradle. But now to your question the AI can't use everythink properly, that is also true in Civ2 and Civ3. But we are working on it, for exapmle recently I figured out a possibility how to "teach" the AI to build forts properly, meaning placing them at its empire borders without the connection of a road.

-Martin

	18-02-2002 02:30									#17
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So with cradle it's more or less on par with civ2's AI?

	18-02-2002 02:48									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf So with cradle it's more or less on par with civ2's AI?

Its hard to compare, because combat is a lot different, but broadly, yes, Cradle AI compares to maybe King in Civ2.
They expand roughly similarly, advance similarly. Perhaps the Cradle AI isn't quite as aggressive, but should be as good (or better) defensively. The barbarians are much more of a problem in Cradle, and winning isn't as easy anyway, because strategies like ICS do not give a significant advantage in CtP, and other 'bugs/features' in Civ2 which can be exploited are not there.

	18-02-2002 03:21									#19
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As far as I am concerned the AI in Cradle is better than that in civ2. Especially since the civ2 AI cheats furiously. In Cradle the AI has many advantages but as far as I know it doesn't cheat. (i.e. it doesn't do anything that the 'rules' don't permit.)

	18-02-2002 04:00									#20
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Ok, so the AI's decent with the mods, graphics are okay, features are nice (especially if the computer doesn't cheat... ), diplomacy functional. Just to make sure, though, again:

In your opinion is it worth the $19.95? Especially when you factor in the other similar titles on the market like EU2, CivIII, etc...would you go with CtP2 over the rest?

Thanks again.

btw, IW: I'm on your ignore list? Let by-gones be by-gones already, sheesh.

	18-02-2002 04:09									#21
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EU2 is good and definitely worth a go. Civ3 is a total waste.

	18-02-2002 04:11									#22
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EU2 for $39 over CtP2 for $19?

	18-02-2002 04:21									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf btw, IW: I'm on your ignore list? Let by-gones be by-gones already, sheesh.

I end up reading most of your posts anyway.
You make me laugh

	18-02-2002 04:57									#24
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Overall, the most striking difference between Civ2's and Cradle's AI is the fact that Civ2's AI cheats like hell and often behaves like a complete moron (various kinds of suicide attacks, building naval units in cities next to 'ponds', moving the capital all the time, poor city placement, etc, etc), in Cradle this is much less the case. In more general lines, Cradle's AI is in military terms roughly on par with Civ2's AI. Civ2 is better at attacking but Cradle does a much better job defending. In terms of city and empire management, Cradle is way superior to Civ2, this is really where modded CtP2 (Cradle, but MedMod even more - but MedMod has a weaker military AI) excells most, compared to Civ2. Even with all the cheats, Civ2 does a *really* poor job in this respect (focussing way too much on building units, building the wrong city improvements/wonders in the wrong cities at the wrong time, senseless tile improving algorithms, etc), whereas Cradle is roughly on par with an average human player. Same with diplomacy, Cradle (as well as MedMod) is much better than Civ2.

Is CtP2 worth the money? I'd say so. Even if you don't like it now, you can always come back in 6 months and see what we've been able to improve in the mean-time. It's always a bit of a gamble since it involves a great deal of personal preference: some of the people here think CtP2 is the best pc game ever while some other people think it's the worst game ever, with or without mods. It might be wise to borrow it from someone first or buy it somewhere where you can return it, but $20 bucks isn't all that much money and it's a Civ-game after (contrary to EU or others)...

Last edited by Locutus on 18-02-2002 at 05:07

	19-02-2002 02:30									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf EU2 for $39 over CtP2 for $19?

Heck, buy both! However, if I had to just choice one I think I'd go with CTP2 because it costs less and I will still get hours and hours of enjoyment out of it. This is simple cost to benifet analysis; I'd enjoy both equally but one costs half as much (if not less).

	20-02-2002 07:52									#26
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Thanks for all the help

I'll hopefully pick it up by the end of next week. (How's that for speed? ) I'll try and get back to you later as far as what I think of it, with and without the various mods. Looks promising either way, inherently passive AI or no.

Thanks again everybody, appreciate the info quite a bit.