17-02-2002 02:09									#1
	A better UU for the Chinese? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I am making an all-encompassing modpack, and I wonder whether there is a better alternative for a Chinese unique unit than the rider. Suggestions?

	17-02-2002 18:05									#2
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They have one of the best there is already. Any unit that can move three gives the player a big advantage.

	18-02-2002 19:16									#3
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The Rider is indeed good in the gameplay, but I would like something more historically interesting.

	20-04-2002 16:37									#4
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Can UUs do anything apart from fight? I always envisioned that the Chinese UU would be something diplomatically oriented - all that Confucian Bureaucratic Infrastructure!

	20-04-2002 16:50									#5
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What about something based on Chinese martial arts?

	20-04-2002 18:09									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What about something based on Chinese martial arts?

Wouldn't that be more likely for the Japanese?

	21-04-2002 04:54									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Beren Wouldn't that be more likely for the Japanese?

No, martial arts can be found in various Far Eastern countires.

Tae Kwon Do is Korean; Kung Fu Chinese, Aikido is Japanese, etc.

The Rider is likely the best choice for a Chinese unit and would be typical of T'ang Dynasty military in the 8th Century.

	21-04-2002 06:15									#8
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the reason for changing the Chinese UU would most prominently be that the rider would be made into the MONGOL UU in some sort of XP. The chinese were the first people to use gunpowder, correct? i saw some history channel special on ancient chinese "rockets" that launched large sharp tipped arrows at targets, that pierced wood and severly dented strong metals.

perhaps they could have an upgraded cannon? with a higher Rate of fire or Bombard attack?

	21-04-2002 06:18									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia Can UUs do anything apart from fight? I always envisioned that the Chinese UU would be something diplomatically oriented - all that Confucian Bureaucratic Infrastructure!

no, UUs are for fighting only. unlike civ3, there are no diplomats / spies in the game, so essentially every unit is for fighting or transporting.

and on a side note, i went to your homepage, and on the main page the first button (navigation tips) is a picture from a porno i saw a while ago.

	22-04-2002 17:41									#10
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The chinese used flame throwers quite early on. That could be a pretty interesting ancient UU (high offense low defense). A converted catapult could provide the graghic.

	27-04-2002 16:16									#11
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The Chu Ko Nu crossbowman... like in AOE2. An ingenius type of crossbow that can rapidly fire volley after volley of crossbow bolts. It was perhaps one of the first weapons to use magazines to hold ammunition. Perhaps it could be a longbow with improved defence (how could you continue advancing on someone firing such a rapid volley of bolts?)

	28-04-2002 05:29									#12
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quote: Originally posted by LordAzreal The Chu Ko Nu crossbowman... like in AOE2. An ingenius type of crossbow that can rapidly fire volley after volley of crossbow bolts. It was perhaps one of the first weapons to use magazines to hold ammunition. Perhaps it could be a longbow with improved defence (how could you continue advancing on someone firing such a rapid volley of bolts?)

I've already made Longbowmen 4.3.1 (as they should be) with a higher shield cost, plus I made them English UU; everyone else got crossbowmen instead.

I don't know what values you'd give to the Chu Ko Nu crossbowman, unless they'd be like regular crossbowmen but with a bombardment capability when attacked. (?).

	28-04-2002 07:19									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle I've already made Longbowmen 4.3.1 (as they should be) with a higher shield cost, plus I made them English UU; everyone else got crossbowmen instead.

There's a good idea.

quote: I don't know what values you'd give to the Chu Ko Nu crossbowman, unless they'd be like regular crossbowmen but with a bombardment capability when attacked. (?).

Hmmm... if the longbow already has increased defence, then maybe the Chu Ko Nu could have increased attack. Of course, this would make them the Persian Immortal of the Middle ages. Slow, lacking defence, but killer attack.

I don't really see how any type of crossbow (other than a ballista) could have bombardment capability.

	23-07-2002 04:05									#14
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Thanks, I think I will use the Chu Ko Nu if I find some good graphics.

	23-07-2002 04:42									#15
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The current Chinese UU is good in my opinion, except that its name sucks. The word "Tieqi", or Iron Knight in English, has always been used to describe elite cavalry in Chinese history. I would replace Rider with Tieqi.

	23-07-2002 07:31									#16
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How about a beaurocrat UU that increases corruption

	23-07-2002 21:38									#17
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH How about a beaurocrat UU that increases corruption

That would mean we need to make "Arthur Anderson" the American UU.

	23-07-2002 21:42									#18
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It would destroy the economy I'm only laughing to hide the pain of my financial losses. How about my spelling of bureaucrat ?

	26-07-2002 10:25									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless The current Chinese UU is good in my opinion, except that its name sucks. The word "Tieqi", or Iron Knight in English, has always been used to describe elite cavalry in Chinese history. I would replace Rider with Tieqi.

Lord,

I think the correct pronunciation of that Chinese term - iron knight - shall be "Tie Ji" but not "Tie Qi". Maybe Sid shall employ someone who knows Chinese language better. Well, anyway "Tie Qi" is a common mis-pron because it is a same character in Chinese but has different prons for different meanings. I agree with you that rider will be a better replacement.

Glory days of riders in Chinese history is in Han dynasty (200 B.C. - A.D. 200) when Chinese battled against nomadic invaders from Siberia and Central Asia desert (Xiong Nu). Within 20 years, Emperor Liu Che sent more than 100,000 Chinese cavalries to defeated the nomadic warriors and drove them away to the Black Sea and Near East.

Waht is more, in the same period, Chinese engineers invented fast shooting crossbow (Su She Nu) which could shoot 6 arrows consecutively in a short moment. Another weapon was called "bed crossbow" (Chuang Nu) - a manchine crossbow used to destory military defense facilities such as walls.

In 12th Century, gunpowders appeared in Song's royal armies. Mongolian barbarians lost a few battles in Central China when Chinese armies equiped with gunpowder weapons stopped Mongolia's further invasions into China's rich Jiang Nan area (area South to Yangtz River, with rice fields and big trading ports). It took Ghagis Han and his sons more than 50 years to conqure China completely. Meng Ge, the second king of Mongol was shot to death by Chinese soilders when he commanded more than 20,000 Mongolian riders to siege a small castle named Diao Yu Cheng (Fishing Flat) in Song's Si Chuan prvince. Mongolians withdrawed after their leader died, but later more and more Chinese traitors were appointed as generals and commanders by Hubilie Khan (the third King of Mongol). By then Chinese soilders in Jiang Nan had to face armies of the same ethnic Chinese who knew how to use gunpowders and were skillful in battleships fighting. In A.D. 1276, the last fight between Song's Royal Navy and traiting fleets was broken in Ya Shan (Cliff Hill) bay near today's Hong Kong. More than 1,000 vessels used primary gunpowder weapons to destory each other. Mongolian General Zhang Hong-fan, who was an ethnic Chinese but choosed to serve his nation's enemy, defeated Chinese fleets. Chinese emperor and his ministers refused to cooperate with barbarians and all commited suicide. A few people fled to Japan to organize opposition army. For Chinese this defeat means the starting of a-hundred-year merciless rule of Mongilian invaders.

	31-07-2002 19:00									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle No, martial arts can be found in various Far Eastern countires. Tae Kwon Do is Korean; Kung Fu Chinese, Aikido is Japanese, etc. The Rider is likely the best choice for a Chinese unit and would be typical of T'ang Dynasty military in the 8th Century.

Are you suggesting we replace the "Rider" with "Kung Fu Fighter"?
imagine the song "Kung Fu Fighting" playing in the background

	01-08-2002 04:18									#21
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The state of the cavalry symbolized the strength and weakness of every Chinese dynasty. If its cavalry was strong, the country would expand and be respected by all its neighbors. If its cavalry was weak, the country would be constantly harassed by its neighbors. Song Dynasty, the militarily weakest of all, had almost no cavalry to speak of.

	02-08-2002 01:13									#22
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Maybe one should call the Riders "Iron Knights" to avoid confusion.

	02-08-2002 01:52									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Optimizer Maybe one should call the Riders "Iron Knights" to avoid confusion.

Ewwww, I'm getting really bad images in my head of the cooking show "Iron Chef".....