23-02-2002 00:13									#121
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Leo,

Thanks for that breakdown on Cradle. I posted a thread on the Ctp2 forum yesterday to get precisely the same info that you just posted. Thanks!

	23-02-2002 05:17									#122
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Very interesting code, IW, exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of. Could you repost that in the CtP2 forums? Once this thread drops off page 1 here it will be impossible to find back again. Also, there are plenty of potential CtP2 users of that code who won't ever read this thread.

Leonidas,
You're spam post is very... spammy

Minuteman,
As far as customizability goes, Civ3 will probably always be inferior to CtP2. Customizability is something that requires radical changes to the basic engine and puts high demands on every aspect of the game. To give Civ3 the modding power of CtP2 basically means completely rewriting the engine of Civ3, something which obviously is not gonna happen until Civ4 comes around, perhaps even later. The only alternative is that Firaxis already has a very mod-frienly code structure in their engine but just hasn't made any of this visible yet; this seems very unlikely to me though, especially if you see how incredibly limited the editor is. As an outsider, it does seem to me that Firaxis only wants to give players just enough customizability to allow for simply scenarios to be created (eventually), just enough to keep a large audience interested in the game and willing to buy their various expansion packs and stuff.
I'm convinced that when it comes to modding, it is best to simply give up on Civ3 and move on to CtP2 (although modding CtP2 is far from perfect either), where one can truly create almost anything one wants (IW's tileimp rush code proofs this excellently).

	23-02-2002 07:43									#123
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Minuteman Leo, Thanks for that breakdown on Cradle. I posted a thread on the Ctp2 forum yesterday to get precisely the same info that you just posted. Thanks!

At your service

I know it can be a pain sometimes to find info. Glad it helped.

	23-02-2002 07:50									#124
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Leonidas, You're spam post is very... spammy

Locutus:

One of my favourite dishes is:

Spam a L'orange

You take one box of Macaroni and Cheese (generic kind will do), add one can of SPAM (the unadvertised brand), mix in one BIG cup of Tang flavour crystals, then garnish with a sprig of parsley. Cooking is optional. Hmmmm. . .

It's amazing what science can do with chopped pork shoulder

	23-02-2002 21:44									#125
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Where's the I play both option?

That's what I would choose. Why force yourself to choose just 1 when they both have their good features (and you have an 80 Gigabyte hard disk?)

	23-02-2002 21:51									#126
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Jonny Where's the I play both option? That's what I would choose. Why force yourself to choose just 1 when they both have their good features (and you have an 80 Gigabyte hard disk?)

After > 100 posts... someone finally found equilibrium and harmony!

I've got 3 computers in my office... 2 days ago I was playing CTP + Cradle on 1, trying out CIV3 1.17f on 2 and evangelising on this thread on the other.

... And a huge craving for Spam a L'orange .

Happy days!

	23-02-2002 23:41									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Raion I always missed messages in CTP2, and I soon got tired of it.

Unlike Civ3, CTP2 saves all of the old messages and they can easily be reviewed by clicking the "Message" button in the lower right hand side. It's having handy little features like this that puts CTP2's design over Civ3. Civ3 was better exicuted then CTP2 but CTP2 was much better layed out.

	24-02-2002 03:02									#128
	cradle Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I have to say that cradle, to me, is the game that civ3 should have been.

If the modders can somehow link cradle and crusade together this will be the ultimate civ type game. I think they are working on it now.

Cradle really does kick ass

	24-02-2002 05:02									#129
	Tired of ads?

Is it possible to model culture and strategic resources in CTP II?

I wouldn't have thought CTPII's 'modability' would extend that far... but I thought I would ask.

	24-02-2002 07:05									#130
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by exeter0 After > 100 posts... someone finally found equilibrium and harmony! I've got 3 computers in my office... 2 days ago I was playing CTP + Cradle on 1, trying out CIV3 1.17f on 2 and evangelising on this thread on the other. ... And a huge craving for Spam a L'orange . Happy days!

exeter0: Yes, it's true - a person CAN play both CTP2 AND Civ3 and live to tell the tale. . .

3 computers? Pure Utopia

SPAM:

You're making me hungry again! And I just ran out of Tang flavour crystals

What is SPAM?

Is it:

Pig meat.
Dog meat.
Rodent meat.
Armadillo meat.
Congealed, dyed lard.
Dyed salt licks.
Maps, spelled backwards?

What does "SPAM" stand for?

Is it:

Spiced Ham.
Specially Processed Army Meat.
Specially Processed Armadillo Meat.
Super Pink Artificial Meat.
Squirrel, Possum, And Mouse.
Silly People Ate More.
Salted Pork And More.
Truth, Justice, And The American Way. . .?

No matter its source, or chemical composition, it is truly a weekend cuisine; every man’s Pate de Foie Gras. . .

*Sniff* All this talk about SPAM is making me nostalgic and it ain't even my birthday. . .

Some say that love inspires the creation of great music; but memories of aged, jellied meat by-products fills me with visions of writing SPAM HAIKU. . .

	25-02-2002 01:32									#131
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by exeter0 Is it possible to model culture and strategic resources in CTP II?

Strategic resources: yes, is being worked on.

Culture: can't be copied directly due to limitations of the UI and stuff, but similar concepts already exist and are being worked on (religion being the most important one - it could end up being CtP2's equivilant of Civ3's culture).

	25-02-2002 04:43									#132
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Leonidas 3 computers? Pure Utopia

Pah! I got 21 to play around with(yah you show-off CoT!)
And i think it is possible to play Civ3 and modded CTP2 and be happy and balanced in life
(I just won't own Civ3 till it has multiplayer )
I've played 'Strategy' games since the mid 80's, the first one was called 'Kingdom' in 1984 on a BBCmicro(a british made computer-yeah we used to do that too!)it was black and white but had something to offer over the crop of platform games that was the bread+butter of early games. There were revolutionary games like 'Elite'(You try and fit nearly a whole galaxy into 16-32k!),some great adventure/rpg titles and of course in 1990 there was a game called 'Civilisation'.That game and 'UFO-enemy unknown' were heads and shoulders above the competition, unless you were an action fan then you played Mechwarrior instead.Then of course came CivII which was an awesome improvement over the origonal, i remember when i first saw it and the isometric graphics really blew you away(!).It felt like a major step-up from the origonal.We were all happy for a few years.SMAC came along and did some different stuff, some liked it some didn't.
I was secretly waiting for Civ3(while playing AOE etc) when along came Activision with Call to Power, it looked(on the box) like the next evolution for Civ - and it did have it's charms, even if you had to unlearn some of those Civ habbits.Anyway, i played it and got my moneys worth. Then the first bit of news about Civ3 started to circulate...it was being worked on - great.Then Call to Power II came out - it seemed to have improved on the concepts of all the Civ games that had preceded it.I bought it and boy did it stink!I played game after game and only was attacked once or twice, and that was never sustained.Still if you liked to just emipre build it was very nice, had improved combat(over CivII),stack movement,more indepth diplomacy - BUT it was obviously rushed out by the publisher before it was properly finished. And it sufferd because of it - if Activision had taken a month or two longer to polish it up it would have been an instant classic.Still i was very pissed to have, as i felt, more or less wasted good money on an unfinished game.It was then that i stumbled on game forums and Apolyton and could see i wasn't the only one who felt ripped off.I'd learn't my lesson and decided i'd only make informed game purchase's from then on.I haven't bought anything published by Activision since.
What HAS this got to do with this thread? well it's something like this.
I now really enjoy CTP2. I gave it another chance to remove that bitter taste over the whole feeling of being ripped off.
I learned(a bit of trial and error involved) to download and install the various Mods from the CTP2 forum.
I have now, what i feel to be nearly the perfect version of 'Civ' for me.I can play multiplayer against my mates and have recently picked up a second copy of the game for £9.99 from HMV in London, so i can run two ongoing multiplayer game sessions to cater for different levels of player.
Please don't be blinded by your first experience of CTP2, as Civ-fans(cause we all are ) it does have something to offer you. It plays a decent single player game with the Craddle Mod/MedMod and each is unique.
Check it out - i'm more than pleased. And lets not get so negative vis-a-vis which is best. Anything that helps us to more choice over the type of 'Civ' game we want is a good thing
Hats of to the guys who made it possible to enjoy CTP2

	26-02-2002 12:45									#133
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by ARES10 Ctp: few hours. Most wasted money ever! Ctp2: never never (even if someone pays me money, I will not waste my time).

Same here. I paid cash for CTP , did not get my money's worth, will not return for CTP2 even though it can be fixed by fans to be a halfway decent game.

Rik

	26-02-2002 13:30									#134
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To 'The Thinker'...

Not much thought behind that post!

	26-02-2002 14:31									#135
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You may not like his opinion, but it's on topic, while most of your posts are off topic.

	26-02-2002 15:04									#136
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Chill ralph.. it was a joke. A pun on his call sign.

Hence the

	26-02-2002 20:20									#137
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I've just finished reading through all of this and thanks, everyone, for one of the most interesting threads I've read in ages (for its amusing off-topic stuff as well as the info about CtP2).

And I'm really glad it was here in the Civ III forum because it has been a real eye-opener for me. I had not realised that CtP2 was so MODable and I now will certainly give it a go not just to try out the MODs that have been done but also to have a go at my own tweaks.

I was really looking forward to some kind of MODability in Civ3 and I am deeply dissapointed that there is none and none in prospect. Perhaps CtP2 will make up for this, we shall see.

Thanks again everyone

	26-02-2002 21:26									#138
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by hexagonian Thank you campmajor, you have more than validated the performance of CTP2 in your statement.

Well, obviously that wasn't on purpose....

The thing is that I probably did not give it a real try. Since I got disappointed by ctp2 earlier, I guess. And also I don't like installing mods. Don't ask me why, but I simply don't like it.

quote: If you had bothered to follow up your post about this problem in the thread where this was discussed, you would of seen my response to this issue. [....] This message can be considered a bug, but at the same time, it does not create pollution in the game - playtesting has confirmed this. Later versions of Cradle have added an info message to this message box to clarify the issue.

Excuse me for not checking up on that one.

I understand your explanation, which is quite plausible.

So maybe I will try ctp2 with mods again later. For now civ3 keeps me busy enough.

But if do want to play ctp2 again, which mod should I use?

	26-02-2002 21:56									#139
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quote: Originally posted by campmajor! So maybe I will try ctp2 with mods again later. For now civ3 keeps me busy enough. But if do want to play ctp2 again, which mod should I use?

campmajor!: Here is an overview of the three major mods (Apolyton Pack, Medieval II Pack, and Cradle v1.2) used to improve CTP2, courtesy of Locutus:


"Well, for one thing, there's a third 'big' mod to consider: the MedMod. The next thing to realize is the age of the mods: Apolyton hasn't been changed in six months or so, so it's really getting old and obsolete. The MedMod had it's last update maybe one or two months ago, while Cradle is still continuously being improved. So in this sense Cradle is the best mod.

"Onto what the mods actually change about the game: Apolyton basically only fixes bugs, it doesn't really add new things. A big improvement but IMHO there's so much more that can be done with this game. That's where Cradle and MedMod come in. The MedMod fixes the same bugs but also does a complete overhaul of the tech tree, the units, the terrain, etc and it makes many changes to other things that affect game balance and the way the game plays. Cradle does the same as the MedMod, except that it (contrary to the MedMod) doesn't cover all the ages but really fleshes out the pre-Medieval ages instead (and does this more elaborately than the MedMod), leaving the post-Medieval ages largely identical to the original game. In this respect Cradle starts out extremely strong in the beginning but gets weaker as the game progresses, while the MedMod is solid throughout. All-in-all, I personally find the MedMod the best, but if you are like playing in the Ancient Age, you will probably prefer Cradle. However, many of the choices Wes made for the MedMod are different from Dave's choices (for Cradle) and both versions work out very well so in this respect you get the best results (i.e. the most variety) by playing both mods: half your games with MedMod, half your games with Cradle.

"Then there are things like Diplomacy, AI, new SLIC features. In this area Apolyton doesn't do particularly much: it fixes bugs, improves the AI a bit (but not all that much) and (what *is* a major change) makes great improvements to diplomacy. The MedMod once again goes a step further: it improves the AI very much (although the further you get in the game, the weaker the AI), makes the same diplomacy changes as the Apolyton Pack (maybe some extra improvements but not much) and adds a bunch of extra SLIC features (i.e. totally new features that weren't in the original game: Elite Units, Garrison Code, Piracy, Personality Switching, etc, see the readmes for details). Cradle goes even further with this: the AI is even better than in MedMod (and the game is overall much harder, even without the extra hard AI) and it stays fairly strong until fairly late in the game (if you survive that long). The diplomacy is not very different from MedMod and Apolyton but Cradle does add tons of SLIC code, with features such as the Upgrade Code, Wonder Units, Natural Disasters, City Capture Options, etc, etc (again, see the readmes for details). In this respect Cradle wins hands down. Once again, many of the MedMod choices (esp. concerning SLIC features) are different from Cradle but still very interesting. Playing both mods instead of choosing just one would give you more variety, which is always a good thing.

"Finally, one point I want to mention that doesn't get mentioned often around here but which IMHO is still very important: polishing. Apolyton doesn't add all that much to the original game: the main change is in the diplomacy. But what is *does* do is polish the original up: fix the most glaring errors and make minor improvements in many areas. Small changes, but they make a world of difference. CtP2 plus Apolyton Pack is really CtP2 as it should have been out of the box (and what it would have been had the designers at Activision had more time). MedMod, although in terms of AI and extra features inferior to Cradle, has one major advantage: it's very polished. Once installed everything works very nice and fluently, there is little maintenance involved and details like the GL, the tech tree, the graphics, the overall atmosphere, etc, everythings looks and feels very smooth and finished. Just click&play...

"Cradle, at least in my view, feels more like a construction kit (although it is perfectly playable as it is), or a model plane that has been built but not yet been painted and all the small ornaments are still missing. Examples: the GL entries for the new items that Cradle adds (or at least the history sections of them) are largely missing, there are too many buildings (so if you want to be able to continue to play until after the modern age without problems you'll have to adapt buildings.txt first), some of the graphics don't quite fit in with the rest as well as others, you have at least half a dozen different versions of Cradle to choose from with all different properties (a version with extra hard AI, a version with AIs being friendlier towards each other, a seafarers version, etc), etc, etc. Basically this is not a bad thing. Much of this was even done delibarately by Dave to allow you to tinker with the files yourself and find your own balance, your own combination of options that you like best (and the background and original goal of Cradle also partially explain this: it was supposed to be a platform for ancient age scenarios, not necessarily a new MedMod). However, sometimes you just want to play and not be bothered with any of that; you don't want to continuously be modding the game, you just want to 'experience' it as well. In this respect I find the MedMod superior, that little finishing touch that it adds. The difference is in those tiny little things but they contribute a lot to the overall 'atmosphere' and 'feeling' of the game. Of course, this is by it's very nature a very personal thing and others may well disagree with me but this is how I feel.

"Overall, the Apolyton Pack is only good if you don't like changing the original game (with new units, new techs, etc) but still want the most glaring errors fixed and a (somewhat) better AI and diplomacy. Like I said before, it's really CtP2 as it should have been. If you like more radical changes, you'll want to go for what really should be called CtP3: the MedMod or Cradle - both qualify as sequels, albeit conservative ones (since the basic game engine is still the same). Because Wes has a very reserved attitude towards using SLIC code (which I can perfectly understand, esp. since I know where it comes from) and because it's not being actively developed anymore, the MedMod is really falling behind in terms of extra SLIC features when compared to Cradle. The easier text-file settings and the less aggressive AI also make it less challenging than it could have been. So purely by looking at the technical specs, Cradle is the better mod (if things continue as they are, MedMod soon won't even be in the same league as Cradle anymore). But if you hold the polishing element in high regard (which I personally do), I'd say the MedMod is not all that far behind and Cradle only wins by a nose length. Either way, I would advise you to download all three mods and play a couple of games with all three of them. If it turns out you strongly prefer one mod over the others, you can simply always play that one, otherwise you can do like me and continue to play all three mods (due to lack of time I don't play all that often, but still). The best thing is, regardless of what you choose, it doesn't cost you a dime extra..."

	26-02-2002 21:57									#140
	Inflate your Upload Space

Played it with mods, a better game rules overall but weak AI kills it. I would like a mix of both for almost perfect solution

Not that we will see that.

Just out of the top of my head

Armies and combat Ctp 2 much much better than civ 3. CTP2 stacking and army system was perfect. Civ 3 - not so. not even now it is better but far from perfection, and we had to add HP's on or own if we want some more pleasant results and not lottery all the time

AI - Civ 3 kicks ass while ctp 2 gets its ass kicked

Interface - ctp 2 has much more clickable menues and almost all commands there -excellent. Huge improvement over Ctp1, and better than Civ3 at the moment

Civ 3 is being developed further so there is hope for everything like stacked movement came now, and worker automation among other things. Ctp 2 could have been great a true rival to civ 3 and even better at this stage if developer support was maintained.

Science tree, units, buildings, scope and depts of Med Mod II ... civ 3 is not even close.

More freedom, basically CTP 2 is killed by two things but very important ones

1. Laclustre AI (made better by the mods)
2. no multiplayer - unbelieveble for a game advertised with that ability. A ripp off to go away without fixing it. But it is working now I guess.

What else

Better queing in ctp 2 as well, let me think no worker automation doh,

worse city growth model (debatable but I don't liek it civ style is better)

Public works are OK, but I like settlers, actually Civ 2 terraforming would be the best for me, just make those setllers and engineers fully automatable as they seem to be now in civ 3.

I lie the camel in civ 2, I would like something simle as a trade model as well like Civ 2, but give the camel 20 movement points
I liked that feel. *nostalgic*

So no culture, that is a bad, but I could survive without it and still have a pleasant gaming experience.

o all war and unit related CTP 2 better
AI - Civ 3 naturally
Interface Ctp 2
Cities and growth - Civ 3
borders - civ 3
po/worklers - both OK
ability to mod - CTP 2
overall none is perfect but I guess I am too perfectionist )

	26-02-2002 22:11									#141
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just to add,

Soren Johannsen saved Civ 3 - hands down,

But depth and width of units/ govs/ buildings/ in mods for CTP 2 ... I can only wish for that in Civ 3 - not in a standard game, but only for all that to be implementable, which is impossible at the moment, not to menton the 'easy'; map creation tool available for CTP with many excellent maps available. ah well....

	26-02-2002 22:31									#142
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

OneFootInTheGrave:

quote: Played it with mods, a better game rules overall but weak AI kills it. I would like a mix of both for almost perfect solution

What mods did you use? Try playing CTP2 with Cradle v1.2 at "hard" or "Very Hard", and try to survive. . .

quote: AI - Civ 3 kicks ass while ctp 2 gets its ass kicked

Try playing with the Cradle Mod. . .

quote: Civ 3 is being developed further so there is hope for everything like stacked movement came now, and worker automation among other things. Ctp 2 could have been great a true rival to civ 3 and even better at this stage if developer support was maintained.

While I agree that Activision dropped the ball with CTP2, modders are doing more for CTP2 now, and in the future, than any company could hope to do. So there is a lot to look forward to. . .

quote: basically CTP 2 is killed by two things but very important ones 1. Laclustre AI (made better by the mods) 2. no multiplayer - unbelieveble for a game advertised with that ability. A ripp off to go away without fixing it. But it is working now I guess.

1) Play Cradle v1.2. The AI is extremely tough.
2) CTP2 HAS multiplayer, while Civ3 has NO multiplayer.

quote: Public works are OK, but I like settlers, actually Civ 2 terraforming would be the best for me, just make those setllers and engineers fully automatable as they seem to be now in civ 3.

This is a subjective play issue. Some like workers, some don't. Personally, CTP2's PW system, without the need to micromanage hundreds of workers, removed late-game worker shuffle and endless clickfest tedium. I can't believe how much time I used to spend shuffling workers around and waiting for them to finish their thing. . . CTP2's system has freed me from this drudgery.

But as I mentioned, it is a player preference.

So, if you want a tough playing experience in CTP2, use the Cradle v1.2 Mod.

	26-02-2002 22:40									#143
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave Played it with mods, a better game rules overall but weak AI kills it.

Out of curiosity, when's the last time you played and what mod did you play? If the answers are 'very recently' and 'Cradle', my hat off to you because I can't beat Cradle's AI anymore, or at least not on Deity (not consistently anyway)...

quote: Interface - ctp 2 has much more clickable menues and almost all commands there -excellent. Huge improvement over Ctp1, and better than Civ3 at the moment

Personally I'd love to exchange CtP2's UI for CtP1's one anyday, but it's good to see at least someone enjoyed it...

quote: Civ 3 is being developed further so there is hope for everything like stacked movement came now, and worker automation among other things. Ctp 2 could have been great a true rival to civ 3 and even better at this stage if developer support was maintained.

Activision may have giving up but CtP2 is under far heavier development than Civ3: new and improved mods, scenarios and other modifications are coming out almost on a daily basis. Civ3 only had 2 patches in 4 months time (most of the fan-made mods are hardly worth mentioning, giving the spearman an extra movement point IMHO doesn't qualify as improving the game).

quote: 2. no multiplayer - unbelieveble for a game advertised with that ability.

Where does this myth that CtP2 doesn't have MP come from? It DOES have MP, both LAN/Internet and PBEM/Hotseat. They may not be perfect or revolutionary (such as Civ3's MP ) but they do exist.

	26-02-2002 23:28									#144
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Out of curiosity, when's the last time you played and what mod did you play? If the answers are 'very recently' and 'Cradle', my hat off to you because I can't beat Cradle's AI anymore, or at least not on Deity (not consistently anyway)...

I haven't played recently , but that is good to know. Now I was thinking to skip civ 3 game for CTP one, and this gives me a hint which one will be

quote: Activision may have giving up but CtP2 is under far heavier development than Civ3: new and improved mods, scenarios and other modifications are coming out almost on a daily basis. Civ3 only had 2 patches in 4 months time (most of the fan-made mods are hardly worth mentioning, giving the spearman an extra movement point IMHO doesn't qualify as improving the game).

good to know. I wonder if Activision would ever give you the source code to see what you can do... not that they read the wishes here anymore.

quote: Where does this myth that CtP2 doesn't have MP come from? It DOES have MP, both LAN/Internet and PBEM/Hotseat. They may not be perfect or revolutionary (such as Civ3's MP ) but they do exist.

But weren't they only half functional, I mean you needed to know what not to press for the game not to crash? That is not really a MP experience one wants right?

	26-02-2002 23:46									#145
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave good to know. I wonder if Activision would ever give you the source code to see what you can do... not that they read the wishes here anymore.

That would indeed be great, but I seriously doubt it will ever happen

quote: But weren't they only half functional, I mean you needed to know what not to press for the game not to crash? That is not really a MP experience one wants right?

AFAIK Internet/LAN works perfectly fine, although on slow connections a lot of resynchs occur and there's one annoying bug with rush-buying stuff (which is being worked on, naturally). From what I hear (I don't MP myself), there is still a vivid MP community on the CtP2 servers.

PBEM/Hotseat require you to make a small change in one of the UI files (explained in the FAQ in the CtP2-General forum) and, aside from human-human diplomacy, also works fine. This diplomacy bug is quite annoying and keeps many people from playing it but I'm still (actively) working on a solution for this myself. However, it's a rather complicated solution and takes a lot of time to code and test.

	01-03-2002 09:35									#146
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Leonidas Yes, it's true - a person CAN play both CTP2 AND Civ3 and live to tell the tale. . .

Yes, they can. I'm living proof. (Although I don't have much of a tale at the moment.)