18-02-2002 06:14									#1
	Have you or will you ever play CtP2 Got spare money?

Please don't move this to Apolyton or the OT. Its a question to the Civ3 players...

Really, if you haven't, it costs so little now, it is worth it. It doesn't wholly deserve its reputation.

	18-02-2002 07:45									#2
	Remove this text

I have played ctp11. Civ 111 is better.

	18-02-2002 08:14									#3
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I'll play CtP II when someone gives me a pirate copy.

	18-02-2002 10:19									#5
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Where is the No I never will play CtP2 ever!! option??
I picked Banana, but that isn't exactly a decent 'No' option...

	18-02-2002 10:30									#6
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CTP2 was not without its charms, but Civ III is better. IMHO, ctp2 was exceedingly dull without modding. All it effectively did was remind me of how much I missed the original Civ franchise.

However, that's not to say that the game was entirely without merit. In fact, there were a couple of elements in ctp2 that I wish were incorporated into Civ III.

In the end, however, I think it's the AI that makes or breaks a strategy game. In the case of ctp2, it's what broke it.

	18-02-2002 10:30									#7
	Re: Have you or will you ever play CtP2 Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Please don't move this to Apolyton or the OT. Its a question to the Civ3 players... Really, if you haven't, it costs so little now, it is worth it. It doesn't wholly deserve its reputation.

haven't yet.
if it's less than $25, I might pick it up. know of a good place that still has it?
also, doesn't it need to be modded to be decent?
where do I get the latest mod for that?

	18-02-2002 11:13									#8
	Re: Re: Have you or will you ever play CtP2 Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Captain haven't yet. if it's less than $25, I might pick it up. know of a good place that still has it? also, doesn't it need to be modded to be decent? where do I get the latest mod for that?

Yes, it does need to be modded to be decent....to say the least. However, even after modding, the AI will still blow.

You might want to check this website for ctp2 mods. This is where I found the ones that I used to use.

(edited because I don't want to get banned)

	18-02-2002 13:18									#9
	CTP II Put an end to popups!

On the good side the game treats you like an adult, has a reasonable if not great combat system and attempts to do some intelligent and innovative things.


But, the blatant cheating, interface difficulties and dull action kill it.

Worth trying to see the good ideas that CIV III should have copied, if you can get it cheap. Maby CTP III will learn from everybodies mistakes and give us a game we can be proud of.

Overall, it's gathering dust on my disk.

	18-02-2002 14:08									#10
	Got spare money?

CtP2 has some nice graphics and a very good combat system. But it ain't a challenge for a single player, because the AI is dumb (at least compared with Soren's masterpiece ).

Especially after interface problems being fixed with release 1.17, CivIII is ways better. Top 3 advantages are AI, strategic resources and culture (in this order).

	18-02-2002 14:27									#11
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Dumb AI?

Well, I used to think CTP2 wasn't worth playing.

Then I picked up a copy very cheaply and loaded up the Cradle Mod v2.1. I put the difficulty on "Hard" and figured I 'd breeze through the game. WRONG!

The AI hit hard, and never let up

What a surprise. I have been battling for my life for 4, 000 years (of game time).

Cradle starts the game in 7000 BC - so it makes for a much longer ancient game.

The mods have fixed the AI - it is almost as ruthless as the AI in Civ 3. The AI formed armies before attacking me. It would avoid a frontal confrontation if it felt inferior to my forces. One nasty trick it had, was to use legion/slinger armies to pin my forces, while it used chariots to get in behind my front lines and pillage my terrain improvements and infrastructure, especially the roads. It would also use ships to land units BEHIND my forces. . .

Several other things I like: 1) You can build 12-unit combined arms armies (such as legionaries, slingers, catapults and cavalry. The nice thing with cavalry is, they get bonuses for making flanking attacks); 2) There are NO workers (I love Public Works - NO end game click-fests); 3) Great intro movie; 4) I love the Wonder movies; 5) There are 12 different Gov't types; and many other things. . .

This game is very cheap now - you'll be very pleasantly surprised But play the game with the mods - it is very challenging. . .

Frankly, I think there's room for all kinds of Civ-like games. They ALL offer something unique, as well as their own special brand of challenge. . .

Last edited by Leonidas on 18-02-2002 at 14:42

	18-02-2002 14:29									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Captain,

I checked Gamespot's get prices link for CtP2 and the best they had was CompUSA at US$29.99, not including shipping.

	18-02-2002 15:45									#13
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Ctp: few hours. Most wasted money ever!
Ctp2: never never (even if someone pays me money, I will not waste my time).

Civ3: fascinating

ares10

	18-02-2002 15:45									#14
	I think CTP II is better Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I could write an essay as to why... but it would only be spammed.

Modded CTPII is a much more immersive and strategically rich game. I am actually sorry to say it... but it is.

The CIV 3 team had 2 years to at least have a look at CTPII to get some ideas.

	18-02-2002 15:57									#15
	Tired of ads?

If only public works, and ctp combat system had made their way into civ3....we'd almost have a perfect civ game, imo.

	18-02-2002 16:37									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Zanzin If only public works, and ctp combat system had made their way into civ3....we'd almost have a perfect civ game, imo.

If that was in civ3 I would hate Civ3, the PW system just made me have to click thousands of times each round which was hell and the combat system... the only thing I remember from their combat system is their stacked attacking which was just annoying

	18-02-2002 16:43									#17
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Hear, hear! You'd be screwed utterly if you couldn't build roads straight away in Civ3.

	18-02-2002 16:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Leonidas This game is very cheap now - you'll be very pleasantly surprised But play the game with the mods - it is very challenging. . .

I gave up modding CtP2 after the 1.11 patch messed my game up and I had to reinstall it. Seemed not to work with localized versions. May be better now, but I rarely play CtP2 anyway, so it doesn't matter.

quote: Originally posted by Leonidas Frankly, I think there's room for all kinds of Civ-like games. They ALL offer something unique, as well as their own special brand of challenge. . .

Agreed.

	18-02-2002 17:31									#19
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quote: Originally posted by ACooper

Unlike that post

quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Where is the No I never will play CtP2 ever!! option?? I picked Banana, but that isn't exactly a decent 'No' option...

I knew I missed an option out, I just couldn't think what it was.

quote: Originally posted by minuteman CTP2 was not without its charms, but Civ III is better. IMHO, ctp2 was exceedingly dull without modding. All it effectively did was remind me of how much I missed the original Civ franchise. However, that's not to say that the game was entirely without merit. In fact, there were a couple of elements in ctp2 that I wish were incorporated into Civ III. In the end, however, I think it's the AI that makes or breaks a strategy game. In the case of ctp2, it's what broke it.

Agreed, but would you consider playing it if modding fixed the AI? Modding isn't some henous crime commited against a game... If the 'average player' doesn't have to do it, then is it so much hassle to download a few megs and try it?

quote: Originally posted by Captain if it's less than $25, I might pick it up. know of a good place that still has it?

You'll need to check the CtP2 forum, there's a thread about its availability. Online (Chips&Bits, eBay etc.) yuo can probably get it for under $20, and I think someone found it for just $10 Look around, its a different price everywhere, and GameSpot's not going to quote the cheapest.

quote: Originally posted by paulmagusnet But, the blatant cheating, interface difficulties and dull action kill it.

Interface difficulties? Everything you need is available with two clicks.
And the AI does not cheat. Quite an acheivement to match up to Civ2's AI without resorting to cheating. That is possibly one of the reasons why it sucked to start with, it is on a level playing field with the human, only without igninuity and long-term planning.

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Especially after interface problems being fixed with release 1.17, CivIII is ways better. Top 3 advantages are AI, strategic resources and culture (in this order).

Precisely the order in which fixes will be modded into CtP2

Leo, exeter0, Zanzin

quote: Originally posted by ADG If that was in civ3 I would hate Civ3, the PW system just made me have to click thousands of times each round which was hell

Whereas a thousand workers are much easier?

quote: and the combat system... the only thing I remember from their combat system is their stacked attacking which was just annoying

Yeah, its so much of a pain to be able to attack and defend with 12 units at once. Where's the strategy in that?

quote: Frankly, I think there's room for all kinds of Civ-like games. They ALL offer something unique, as well as their own special brand of challenge. . .

Agreed indeed.
But CtP2 is the only one where you can add your own brand of challenge, and make it unique to yourself

*loves SLIC*

	18-02-2002 17:52									#20
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I liked some aspects in ctp2. The stacked combat (not a useless army like in civ3) and the many governements.

But the PW is one thing I did not like. I tend to forget to use it! Whereas a worker would prompt me to do something when it is finished. But I guess this is one of the things where you will as many people for it as against it....

The AI was really nothing. I used a mod one time, but as this made it really impossible for me, I did not think that was better....
And also with that mod I got pollution in 4000BC....

So I must say that IMHO civ3 is better. Though the army thing (or stacked units) in ctp2 is much better.

	18-02-2002 18:11									#21
	Tired of ads?

Was that mod Cradle? The 'pollution' could well have been a dead tile caused by a volcano nearby.

Aren't random events neat?

	18-02-2002 18:41									#22
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I played CTP2 a lot.
It was my main hobby while waiting for Civ3.
In fact I was making one nice custom MOD for CTP2, with incorporated most of AI boost from other MODs, my own boosts and unit rebalances.
I didn't added any special things like Leaders and such, too much usefull for human payers, a little for AI.

Unfortunately, when I look at mysefl I see that I MODed CTP2 more then I was playing. AI x100 better then before but still dumb form time to time.

It's pity that CTP2 mod community looks a little desorganised (but not too much). I mean 3 mods, 3 diferent AIs, why they didn't combined their efforts to get one awesome AI.
Anyway Aplyton pack & MedMod look obsolete, while Crade is still upgraded, but not nicely balanced for modern ages.

It's pity that when I made my last MOD open to public nobody even tried to get someting out of it (exept Martin). I made custom terrafrming for AI, Specail unit startegies, MODED files that way to make AI competitive in GAIA race (nobody did it for other modes, mostly since noone from moders play the game to the end). I even made AI produce all type of units available, including Bomers and Fighters. I made even some interesting nuke strategies.


Anyway I lots interest, so I play Civ3 for now.

Why I lost interst.
It's to tiresome.

When I played my MOD it always MODed it in the fly since I saw some inbalances, etc...

Never played one game without MODifing at lest one little thing.


Wombat, look some scripts form my MOD and try to get someting form them, you could get some nice results.

And happy MODing.


P.S.
I am curous has anybody solved Loctus-Alexaneder bug (when unit get stuck near cities on roads or rairoads).

If not, I have some suggestions about it.

	18-02-2002 18:44									#23
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To tell you the truth, I havn't played Civ2 at all. The only civ I've played was for the SNES, and that thing was hard as hell, mostly because china kept units around my city of Rome, and the sutpid sentate said I couldn't attack them. At least in civ3 you have some sort of boarders.

	18-02-2002 18:59									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by player1 It's pity that CTP2 mod community looks a little desorganised (but not too much). I mean 3 mods, 3 diferent AIs, why they didn't combined their efforts to get one awesome AI. Anyway Aplyton pack & MedMod look obsolete, while Crade is still upgraded, but not nicely balanced for modern ages.

Define Awesome AI. Wes tried to get the AI to make decisions better, and suceeded. Dave tried to get the Cradle AI more aggressive, and suceeded. Dale tried to get the diplomacy working better, and suceeded. It is difficult to combine them all, as the strategies.txt is all interrelated and hard to pick out what does what.

quote: Wombat, look some scripts form my MOD and try to get someting form them, you could get some nice results.

Will do.

quote: P.S. I am curous has anybody solved Loctus-Alexaneder bug (when unit get stuck near cities on roads or rairoads).

For the scenario, Wouter decided it would be easier to make all the roads 2 tiles wide. BlueO came up with a solution ages ago though, where the blocking stack moved off the road while the other one moved past.

quote: If not, I have some suggestions about it.

Suggest then Not in this thread though. PM me, or start a thread in the CtP2 mod section.

	18-02-2002 20:08									#25
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quote: Originally posted by campmajor! The AI was really nothing. I used a mod one time, but as this made it really impossible for me, I did not think that was better....

The AI was really nothing because it was TOO HARD...?!?!?

...Given the fact that the bonuses in civ3 are a lot more than the bonuses in Modded CTP2 (and I already know that you are referring to Cradle) I would take that as a compliment to what the AI is capable of accomplishing in CTP2.

On civ3 Deity the bonuses are at 200% of the human player. On Cradle Deity the bonues are at anywhere between 110 and 140%. Imagine if Cradle had the same bonuses...

Thank you campmajor, you have more than validated the performance of CTP2 in your statement.

I will qualify the above statement with the term 'Modded CTP2' Activision did not take full advantage of the bonus system in their default game. The Modders however, have taken a very customizable game and fixed a great deal of it.

Before anyone goes off on the tangent that civ3 does not need to be modded, I humbly point to ther proliferation of civ3 Mods that address the combat imbalances, corruption, etc.

Not to mention that there hasn't been a suitable fix for the current problem, late game tedium...

I won't even go into the weaknesses of the civ3 Editor. My hat will be off to Firaxis if they make a fully functional Editor available for free, but if they charge for it, they won't get my business.

quote: Originally posted by campmajor! And also with that mod I got pollution in 4000BC....

If you had bothered to follow up your post about this problem in the thread where this was discussed, you would of seen my response to this issue. This is an instance where a player can push the limit of what the game can handle through the Modding process. The suggestion was to allow the rise of splinter civs during the course of the game.

As it stands now civ3 allows up to 16 civs. CTP2 can allow up to 32, plus it can allow cities that revolt to create new civs DURING THE COURSE OF THE GAME through the modification of a file handled at the player's end (this is not part of any official Mod or the default game, BTW - it is a suggested change to be made by a player).

However, this will also create a message box that will warn of global pollution. This message can be considered a bug, but at the same time, it does not create pollution in the game - playtesting has confirmed this. Later versions of Cradle have added an info message to this message box to clarify the issue.

	18-02-2002 21:05									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat For the scenario, Wouter decided it would be easier to make all the roads 2 tiles wide. BlueO came up with a solution ages ago though, where the blocking stack moved off the road while the other one moved past. Suggest then Not in this thread though. PM me, or start a thread in the CtP2 mod section.

I will, and it should be probably all around solution usable in normall game (which could improve AI performance).
Although someone would need to write a code.

	18-02-2002 23:09									#27
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I have to say that I played CTP2 modded (Apolyton Pack) and it was a very fine and balanced game, much better than the original version. But I still think that Civ3 is better... I don't know why.

Anyway, I have to congratulate all those who worked hard to make CTP2 a real strategy game -- Wes, hexagonia, Dale, Martin, and others -- your efforts really made CTP2 a decent and good game.

But I still prefer Civ3.

	18-02-2002 23:45									#28
	Put an end to popups!

I like them both. If Civ III had included CtP2 armies, governments and editable capabilities then I'd have something close to my ideal game.

	19-02-2002 00:32									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The CTP2 combat model allowed realistic action:
- the need to recce to find out what you were up against in combat
- the ability to retreat when your were outgunned
- sensible siege warfare

Public works means never having to move a worker again

There were also other good concepts like the trade model, stealth units and specialist farmers and labourers

However, the AI was never challenging and each game turned into a one-sided conquest

What disappoints me most are posters who assume that Civ2 or SMAC are the highpoints of civ games without having investigated the concepts from CTP2

	19-02-2002 01:26									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Where is the No I never will play CtP2 ever!! option??

Because it's ridiculous and uncalled for to have such a humongous prejudice against a game (IMNSHO)?

quote: Originally posted by Myrddin The CTP2 combat model allowed realistic action: - the need to recce to find out what you were up against in combat - the ability to retreat when your were outgunned - sensible siege warfare

True, but you're forgetting much more obvious improvements such ranged units attacking from a distance and flankers from the side, in support of the ordinary melee units.

quote: However, the AI was never challenging and each game turned into a one-sided conquest

You obviously haven't played with (recent) mods...

quote: What disappoints me most are posters who assume that Civ2 or SMAC are the highpoints of civ games without having investigated the concepts from CTP2

I couldn't agree more. You can't expect everyone to like CtP2, but to dismiss (or bash - even worse) it would giving it a decent chance is rather stupid IMHO (the same goes for Civ3 and any other game BTW).