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Dr Strangelove
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What was that song from the musical "South Pacific", the one about having to teach bigotry to kids at a young age?
The other day my seven year old son was watching a program where some guy was trying to fake an Australian accent. The guy kept saying "Oy" over and over again. Now my kid is trying to imitate him, but the hilarious thing is that from him it sounds like a Jewish "Oy". He repeatedly says "Oy" this and "Oy" that and people just stare at him. It's hilarious. Sometime this week I may take him aside and explain it all to him. It ain't gonna be easy.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:17
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Regarding the American definition of Asian:
I have never seen a tendency for Americans to define Asian any differently than either:
1) The common definition (adjectival construct) of the big continent minus the part which calls itself Europe.
2) Of the big continent including Europe which is also called Eurasia.
Thus Pakistan, India, SE Asia, most of Central Asia, and East Asia are all in the mix, with Iran and Asia Minor and the former Soviet Republics and Siberia being on the cusp for those who subtract Europe from the equation.
Now it is true that Americans have more day to day contact with people of East Asian descent than South Asian descent which IIRC is more common in Britain. Thus the term Asian is going to bring to mind a different picture for the average American than the Average Britain. Please note however that East Asia is as populous as South Asia, and that neither view is really 'more correct' than the other.
As for race and racism, they go hand in hand. The more you believe in the idea of race, the more you are susceptible to the ideas of racism. This cuts both ways, some of the worst racists I have ever met were ethnic studies types whose sole occupation seemed to be creating ethnic friction in as many ways as possible. Most people are not afraid to point the finger at (some) skinheads for being racists, and many are well aware of the racist who is invisible to himself. Few are willing to call a spade a spade however when the offensive person is a member of a minority racial group which is famous for being persecuted, especially when that person uses the term racist like a weapon which is biologically attuned to only effect caucasians.
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DaShi
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The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Why shouldn't your race be considered at any time? Ignoring someone's race is pretty bad, also. You're saying to someone that part of who they are isn't worth recognition. Ignoring our differences is not superior to recognizing and clebrating our differences.
Vive la difference. We would be f*cking boring if we all looked like one particular group of people.
Growing up in a racist society, you are taught, over and over, certain assumptions about other groups. These become part of your core belief system, some of which may be so deeply ingrained that you don't even realize that you have them. The assumptions you make just seem natural.
I believe it is impossible for anyone to grow up in a racist society without being deformed by that sick system. By default, we are racists. We can educate ourselves and try and overcome these inherent asumptions. Even knowing, however, that you have racist attitudes is not necessarily enough. It may be that mere knowledge is enough to motivate a person to overcome those beliefs, but often it seems, it takes interaction to really break down those attitudes.
BTW, again, complex social issues can only be defined using a dictionary if you are a complete fool.
Yes, race is an arbitrary social distinction between humans. So is American and British and what we think the roles of men and women are. Their arbitrariness does not make these distcintions less real. Money is only an agreement among people, yet no one argues that it doesn't exist. Race exists, because we agree that it does, we act like it does, and among people, that's what's important. |
There is a difference between culture and race. Culture affects behavior directly. Race does not. A black child may act like other black children because the society he grows up in encourages hm to do so. A Chinese-American may act and sound like any white American, however, would feel strange and foreign among native Chinese. Race is merely our genetic makeup. Culture determines how we respond to that makeup.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
Few are willing to call a spade a spade however when the offensive person is a member of a minority racial group which is famous for being persecuted, especially when that person uses the term racist like a weapon which is biologically attuned to only effect caucasians. |
Sounds to me like you're applying your own feelings to everyone. I have no problem telling a person they are being racist, regardless of their race.
I would accept that your statement may be true for white people in North America, but the reason that this attitude exists is because these people have not come to terms with racism.
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Ecowiz Returns
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Portugal
Aug 2001
time: 05:17
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I think that after the first Human Genome Project results, we no longer can say that a clear bio-fisiologic distintion exists between human beings.
Having the Humankind separated by races is as accurate as separating by heights, toenail form, number of teeth... whatever stupic classification norm one may find.
Actually the point is that we are all different and no one gives a damn about it, until someone decides to classify that difference.
Let's take this small example:
Me and my brother we are... well, brothers. So pretty much equal: same parents, same familly background, therefore, same cultural background, same color of skin.
Now, I'm left-handed, he is right-handed. Some years ago people would look at me and say I was cursed.
My favourite football club is Portugal is Sporting, his is Benfica. You can imagine how every now and then this diference is of the utmost importance.
The point is that, even me and my brother are different (go figure...) and we don't give a damn about it.
Why should we focus so much in other equally insignificant differences.
Our diferences is what make our existence richer. We are all limited, so we all can complement each others' limitations, because we are diferent. The point is that, there is no need to label those differences nor to tag people according to them. We are neither better nor worse because of those labels or tags. We remain limited Human Beings.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Oxford defines racism as: 1 (prejudice based on belief in superiority of particular race. 2 Antagonism towards other races.
The Encarta dictionary lists similar definitions, but for the second it states: The belief that people of different races have different qualities and abilities and that some races are inherently superior or inferior.
Using the Encarta definition, Caligastia is a racist. |
To me racism is a hateful thing. I dont hate anyone because of their race, I just state the facts as I see them. I am not predjudiced toward anyone because of their race. I am just as likely to accept you as a friend no matter what race you are and I dont have a problem living with other races. I live in New York City - one of the most racially diverse places on earth. Do you think I would stay here if I was a bigot? I have never had a problem with relocating. I have moved to different countries and continents several times in my life, so if I disliked other races so much I would move.
The Encarta definition is incomplete. Any definition of racism should mention hate.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:17
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I don't define myself as a racist, but raving liberals might. 
Bet then again, I have a slightly differnt definition of racism. Look below. 
So here goes - things I agree with:
quote:
I dont assume, I believe what I believe because of the research I have done and because of my life experiences. Racists just hate others because they look different. |
quote:
I am against affirmative action
I believe one should be proud of one's race and identify with one's culture to some extent. Diversity makes our society great |
quote:
Why shouldn't your race be considered at any time? Ignoring someone's race is pretty bad, also. You're saying to someone that part of who they are isn't worth recognition. Ignoring our differences is not superior to recognizing and clebrating our differences.
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quote:
Yes, race is an arbitrary social distinction between humans. So is American and British and what we think the roles of men and women are. Their arbitrariness does not make these distcintions less real. Money is only an agreement among people, yet no one argues that it doesn't exist. Race exists, because we agree that it does, we act like it does, and among people, that's what's important. |
The rest of that excellent post by che. 
quote:
Few are willing to call a spade a spade however when the offensive person is a member of a minority racial group which is famous for being persecuted, especially when that person uses the term racist like a weapon which is biologically attuned to only effect caucasians.
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quote:
Racism is not a trait exclusive to people of white Anglo-Saxon orgin, in spite of how deliciously PC that notion is. |
quote:
To me racism is a hateful thing. I dont hate anyone because of their race, I just state the facts as I see them. I am not predjudiced toward anyone because of their race. I am just as likely to accept you as a friend no matter what race you are and I dont have a problem living with other races. |
Disagree with :
quote:
The more you believe in the idea of race, the more you are susceptible to the ideas of racism. |
Wow. this is like the first time we disagree.
People are often racist, even when they disagree with races. The idea of racism is thinking your race/culture/ethnicity superior and being agressive/discriminating others. This often happens to so called "non-racists" over different cultures/nationalities/races.
Generally I don't believe in the term "racist".
I believe in the term "agressive" or "discriminating".
Some people will discriminate others for what ever category. Be it race, nationality, culture or political opinion. Those are "racists".
And some people won't.
quote:
Liberals dont want to have a concrete definition of racism, that way they can use it to tar and feather more people. |
Often, very true.
It's like using the term fascist on whom ever supports measures that give more security at the price of discomfort or some limited freedom (like checking one's bags on entry to public places and so on)
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Guynemer
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The word can be used as an derrogatory term for Black people.
I don't know the etymology of the phrase, but it means being afraid to say things as they really are.
It also means a type of shovel, and is one of the suits in a deck of cards (not tarrot). The derrogatory usage comes from the later usage of the word, from the phrase, "Black as the Ace of Spades." |
And I'm pretty sure that "call a spade a spade" comes from the derrogatory meaning of the word, not from the conventional definitions. I don't remember where I heard that, but I remember learning that somewhere. I was actually going to post something about his choice of phrase, but you beat me to it.
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Caligastia
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I never heard the spade one before, must be american...
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:17
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To me, racism means assigning moral and value judgements to catagories created by grouping individuals based on phisiological features. Thus, because some groups of people, for environmental reasons, have a different level of melanin in their system,or different facial structure, we state that all such persons are members of a group with specific values, which can be seen as superior or inferior.
The sillyness of this system, I think, is self-apparent. At the same time, saying this does not remove that fact that people are biologically conditioned to be somewhat more anxious around people who look very different than around people who look similar. felling uncomfortable when you are the only person with some type of phisiological feature that no one else in the area shares, I feel is normal. Making a value judgements based on this is not.
As for recognizing someones race- whether this is offensive or not is completely based on the values of the person being addressed. Someone who does not believe in racial classification, or finds it morally dubious will not want their race to be 'recognized', someone who does will.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
To me racism is a hateful thing. I dont hate anyone because of their race, I just state the facts as I see them. I am not predjudiced toward anyone because of their race. I am just as likely to accept you as a friend no matter what race you are and I dont have a problem living with other races. I live in New York City - one of the most racially diverse places on earth. Do you think I would stay here if I was a bigot? I have never had a problem with relocating. I have moved to different countries and continents several times in my life, so if I disliked other races so much I would move.
The Encarta definition is incomplete. Any definition of racism should mention hate. |
So, there are no racists in New York? Have all the bigots moved away?
You claim that you are just stating the facts. What you are actually doing is stating racist myths. These myths may reflect negative or positive attributes on a race, but in the end, these myths are not true.
To say, for example, that blacks are great athletes is a racist myth that is incorrect. There are many fat black people who are terrible athletes.
A racist decision could be free of hate and yet still hurt a person. Let's say you're a hockey coach and your best friend is black. His son wants to play hockey. If you look at the kid and decide that he can't play cause blacks are terrible hockey players then that would be an unfair racist decision, even if you really like the kid.
(By the way, the top point scorer in the NHL this year is black.)
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
So, there are no racists in New York? Have all the bigots moved away? |
Maybe not, but I doubt they are as mobile as I am.
quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
You claim that you are just stating the facts. What you are actually doing is stating racist myths. These myths may reflect negative or positive attributes on a race, but in the end, these myths are not true. |
...in your opinion
quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
To say, for example, that blacks are great athletes is a racist myth that is incorrect. There are many fat black people who are terrible athletes. |
You can never apply a blanket statement to a race regarding physical fitness or intelligence because there are always exceptions, but I would say that blacks are generally physically superior. Why do you think they do so well in american sports? Natural selection in africa favored the strongest and fastest.
quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
A racist decision could be free of hate and yet still hurt a person. Let's say you're a hockey coach and your best friend is black. His son wants to play hockey. If you look at the kid and decide that he can't play cause blacks are terrible hockey players then that would be an unfair racist decision, even if you really like the kid.
(By the way, the top point scorer in the NHL this year is black.) |
But that is a stupid decision because there is no reason to believe blacks are worse at hockey.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
You can never apply a blanket statement to a race regarding physical fitness or intelligence because there are always exceptions, but I would say that blacks are generally physically superior. Why do you think they do so well in american sports? Natural selection in africa favored the strongest and fastest.
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So, natural selection in Europe or Asia would favour the slowest and the weakest? Why would Africa be any different than the rest of the world.
Your theory falls to pieces anyways because most blacks in the US come from families that have not lived in Africa for centuries.
Even if we try to make large generalizations, race doesn't tell us a lot about a person. Africa is a gigantic place. People there have different genetic traits. So to make a sweeping generalization, IIRC, people from Ethiopia tend to have bodies that are better for sprinting. People from Nigeria are more heavyset and muscular, say like a boxer. But even in these two countries there is a wide variety of body types.
These differences have more to do with eating habits than with a racial characteristic.
IIRC, blacks in the US have a higher obesity rate than whites. That's due to different cultural eating habits.
In China, the people in the north have traditionally been taller than those in the south. That may reflect the fact that in the north, people eat wheat-based food while rice is the staple food in the south. The height difference is changing as places like Hong Kong have become economically developed. Young people here tend to be far taller than their parents.
Like I said, your "facts" are myths.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
So, natural selection in Europe or Asia would favour the slowest and the weakest? Why would Africa be any different than the rest of the world. |
Natural selection in colder climates favours intelligence. Thats why the northern chinese are generally more intelligent than the southern.
quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Your theory falls to pieces anyways because most blacks in the US come from families that have not lived in Africa for centuries. |
It doesnt matter, they still have the genetic inheritance of their ancestors.
quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Even if we try to make large generalizations, race doesn't tell us a lot about a person. Africa is a gigantic place. People there have different genetic traits. So to make a sweeping generalization, IIRC, people from Ethiopia tend to have bodies that are better for sprinting. People from Nigeria are more heavyset and muscular, say like a boxer. But even in these two countries there is a wide variety of body types. |
Of course there are variations, but as I said, there are always exceptions to the rule.
quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
These differences have more to do with eating habits than with a racial characteristic. |
Quite possibly. I dont discount environmental influences.
quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
IIRC, blacks in the US have a higher obesity rate than whites. That's due to different cultural eating habits. |
I agree.
quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
In China, the people in the north have traditionally been taller than those in the south. That may reflect the fact that in the north, people eat wheat-based food while rice is the staple food in the south. The height difference is changing as places like Hong Kong have become economically developed. Young people here tend to be far taller than their parents.
Like I said, your "facts" are myths. |
You havent disproven anything.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:17
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So Caligastia, you agree that blacks in the US have a higher obesity rate than white, and yet at the same time you say blacks are physically superior. The two are contridictory, or do you think that being extremely fat is a superior form of physical fitness.
As for the claim that "Natural selection in colder climates favours intelligence," if that was true then the cradle of civilization would have been in the far north and the Inuit would be the leaders in science.
The idea that Northern Chinese are smarter than southern Chinese is laughable.
By the way, the idea that Blacks dominate US pro sports is a myth. There are very few blacks in the NHL and the number of black baseball players has been on the decline for the past 20-odd years.
Top 5 HR leaders in MLB last year were: Bonds, Sosa, Gonzalez, Rodriguez, Helton
Top 5 batting avg: Walker, Suzuki, Giambi, Alomar, Helton.
ERA: Johnson, Schilling, Burkett, Maddux, Garcia.
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19-02-2002 10:40
I'll give you Federov AND his wife. 
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