18-02-2002 16:16									#1
	Would anybody be interested in this? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm seriously considering making a MP only scenario based on the naval aspects of the Napoleonic Wars (using the same map as 'The Cruel Sea')
As the scenario is going to be designed for human play only, I won't need to do many events or much testing and I can *probably* produce a finished product in a week or two.

I'm thinking of including the following Civs:

*England
*France
*Spain
*Russia
*The United States (war of 1812, etc)
*The Ottoman Empire
*Sweden (which will include Denmark & maybe Prussia)
*Barbarians representing slavers and various pirate organistations

Would anyone be interested in playing this?

As I'm yet to reach a stage where I can produce screenshots, here's the picture I'm thinking of using as the scenario's title picture

	18-02-2002 16:35									#2
	Re: Would anybody be interested in this? Put an end to popups!

is a really good idea

there is an important lack of napoleonic scenarios and it would be interesting to play a mp in the sea,

because cruel sea wasn´t suit for multiplayer, was it?

	18-02-2002 17:21									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Sounds really good

I especially like your choice of civs, theres quite a bit of variety in there. Put me down for the first PBEM of this one

	18-02-2002 19:09									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

It sounds great! I don't think there's ever been a MP Napoleonic scenario before. That would be interesting to play.

	18-02-2002 19:15									#5
	Sweden is mine! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

In a future pbem, I want sweden!
(one thing though, denmark fought with napoleon, sweden fought against, isnt that going to be a problem?).

	18-02-2002 23:22									#6
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Yea, i love Napoleon Scenarios, I'll take Britian... Rule Britiania!!


Sorry But 'DEATH TO THE EMPERPOR'- yells crowds of British

	19-02-2002 03:32									#7
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hmm, I think that it's a bit early to start chosing sides (anyway i want Britain )

Henrik: thanks for that - I'll lump Denmark in with France (like the Netherlands). During the Napolionic wars most nations swapped sides as the war ebbed and flowed, so it's a bit tricky to set this stuff up.

Here's how I'm planning for the scenario to work: (any sugestions would be very welcome)

Britain is facing the threat of invasion, yet her cities have very low production and Britain faces cash flow problems.
As a result the French have to intercept British cargo ships coming from India and the America's, and prevent Britain trading with Europe. Simultaneously the French must protect their Caribean possesions and try to mount an invasion of Britain (I'm going to include some land forces this time)

Other civs can help or hinder Britain as they see fit.

BTW, does anybody have a tech tree with all the techs prerequisites set to nil, nil? I've copied over mine

	19-02-2002 05:05									#8
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Is this going to be historically accurate? I can see some serious play-balance issues if so - especially for multi-play.
If you're including ground actions but don't want settler-type units founding cities all over the place you could have problems with cities being destroyed, especially in central areas such as France/Prussia. One thing you could try in order to prevent this is keeping all offensive unit strengths relatively low to prevent major continental city-swapping (ie: basically require naval bombardment to kill off defensive units before invading - I don't think cities lose pop to naval actions? ).

Also if transport-types could only carry a single ground unit this would give a big boost to the defenders and possibly allow them to retake cities quickly unless faced with a truly massive invasion force.

Featuring a bonus to gold for each caravan unit killed would fit in nicely with the increased emphasis on plunder in those times.

	19-02-2002 06:25									#9
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Ravagon, thanks for those sugestions

I'm planning that all ships will be submarines (ocean only units), with maybe a Bomb Ketch for coastal bombardments.
All continental cities will have extreamly tough defences to prevent their easy capture, but cities elsewhere (including Britain) will be lightly protected.
Sinking any ship will earn 'prize money' (which was awarded in those days to the entire ships crew)

Godd idea with the transports

	19-02-2002 11:54									#10
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Anything to help

Another point. Are you planning on creating British caravan/transport combo's from india or having the player build them? If created by events, caravans only have the first "hides" flag which wouldn't be a problem at the start of the scenario as civtweak (?) could set all of your cities demands to that first flag, but as you progress I think these still change so eventually you're going to have basically worthless caravans.
You might also want to have several event-created ship type units that have a high shield cost - to be used solely for disbanding in British cities for the shields (although then I suppose you'd need an incentive for the British player to actually move them to England rather than just disbanding them in Indian port cities ... Maybe the Indian cities aren't ports? ).

[Edit: Also, as the previous Cruel Sea scoring system wouldn't work too well you could try one based on a civ's gold. From round to round simply take a civ's gold total and subtract a certain value for each unit that civ has lost to any other civ. Of course that would probably cause evry other civ to gang up on the one that had taken the least losses... ]

Last edited by ravagon on 19-02-2002 at 12:11

	19-02-2002 11:58									#11
	Got spare money?

quote: I don't think there's ever been a MP Napoleonic scenario before

Anzac, have you played John Ellis' Bonaparte? You can get it on the same site where you got Hellas (Henrik left a link on the Pelopennesian War PBEM.)

This is one of my all time favourite scenarios, and I always thought it would be really good for MP, as all the civs are very playable. I was considering starting a PBEM of it after the American Empire PBEM got off the ground, but then I got involved in Hellas and this thread came up.

Case, I know your scen is naval centred, but if it does have much land campaigns, wouldn't you have to include Prussia and Austria?

I also think it'll be very interesing having the North American theatre. Will this scen start before Napoleon sold Louisiana?

	19-02-2002 13:05									#12
	More Denmark... Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Case Henrik: thanks for that - I'll lump Denmark in with France (like the Netherlands). During the Napolionic wars most nations swapped sides as the war ebbed and flowed, so it's a bit tricky to set this stuff up.

Actually the danes would be ideal as a wild card nation, but thats not possible with only 7 civs I guess, what happened was that the brittish with their usual diplomatical finesse demanded the danes to just give them thier entire fleet (denying it to Napoleon) in exchange for a vague prommise about them maybe getting it back, eventually...
The danes obviously refused, which resulted in the royal navy turning copenhagen to ashes (in the battle of the Copenhagen warfs, not sure of the english name though) which in turn made the previously neutral nation of Denmark an ally of France...

Annyway its ok to group it with napoleon I think (that or make it a barbarian nation), it will give me a good excuse to fight the old arch enemy

For events, what about capturing enemy ships?
That was done a lot back then as I recall (I've read lots of Hornblower ).

	19-02-2002 13:39									#13
	Re: More Denmark... Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Henrik which in turn made the previously neutral nation of Denmark an ally of France...

Yes, but it became a French ally without a fleet.

*Bars to Rule Brittania are heard in the background*

wrt capturing ships, can you use the ratio/chance (1 in 2, 1 in 10 etc) switch in this? Otherwise you'd always capture ships which would be rather unrealistic.

Actually, if every nation has an "India" (albeit to a lesser extent than Englands) in which caravans are created for ferrying to the mother-country, all captured units could be created (as cripples?) at the same point/city to reflect getting them back into service ...

	19-02-2002 13:59									#14
	Re: Re: More Denmark... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by ravagon wrt capturing ships, can you use the ratio/chance (1 in 2, 1 in 10 etc) switch in this? Otherwise you'd always capture ships which would be rather unrealistic.

No you can't which is a major problem
Possibly one could make several indistinguishable versions of the same ship, some of which become captured and some of which are sunk, but as I am guessing we will be allowed to build ships this wouldnt work very well...

quote: Actually, if every nation has an "India" (albeit to a lesser extent than Englands) in which caravans are created for ferrying to the mother-country, all captured units could be created (as cripples?) at the same point/city to reflect getting them back into service ...

Sounds like a good idea, what would one do with the crippled unit once in europe though? We cannot magically transform it into a proper ship
Would that too be disbanded for shields?
That wouldnt make a lot of sence, first you transport a leaking wreck of a ship over a great ocean, only to tear it appart when you reach your destination

You could argue that what you do is to repair the ships when you disband it, the additional required shields being the actual repair work.

	19-02-2002 14:06									#15
	Re: Re: Re: More Denmark... Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Henrik Sounds like a good idea, what would one do with the crippled unit once in europe though? We cannot magically transform it into a proper ship

Ack! Sorry. I meant create a new ship with only a single hit point (or am I getting events mixed up with the scen editor?). This assumes that you don't have Naval ports everywhere so that you can repair it fully in a single turn.

	19-02-2002 14:21									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

Aha, I thoght you meant to create a unit type that was a "crippled ship" the events cannot handle the HPs of units they create

	19-02-2002 16:31									#17
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Lots of good ideas everyone.

*takes a deep breath*

I'd like to include the ability to capture ships, but I don't really see how I can do this, especially in a MP scenario where players can opt to not build ships which can be 'captured'.

It's a shame as capture was a common fate for warships of the day (it's hard to sink a wooden ship with solid metal cannon balls). I guess the whole prize money thing will have to cover for this

I'm planning to base the scenario around Britain's need to bring in cargo ships (with high shield values), and trade ships (in a similar way to the arms shipments in Red Front). These will be vital to ensure Britains financial and military survival. These ships will be created by events in the Carribean [which will have no cities capable of building ships] and the South Atlantic, and Britain must escort them home while countering invasion efforts, and preventing a general European alliance against her.

Henrik, thanks for that further stuff on the Danes. I've read that Britain 'had' to bombard Copenhagen again in 1807(?), and that Danish forts took pot shots at any British ship which got too close, so I'll definetly include them as part of France.

Fritz, I'm sticking to naval action, so there won't be any Austrians, and I may lump the Prussian ports in with the Swedes (a very big on this though).
I'm not sure how I'll handle Louisiana. I guess It will start out French.

BTW, John Ellis (Aka Patient English) is working on Bonaparte II, and is currently conducting extensive mulitplayer testing

After reading that barb ships never attack, I've decided to make raiders a seperate civ, and have the Ottomans as Barbs.

now a few questions:

*Does anyone know when the US changed to it's modern style flag? (eg stars in rows, not in a circle).

*Should I include marines as land units or spy units? I'd prefer to have them as spys, but this means that all nations would share the same marine unit picture

*Does anyone know when large scale comercial whaling finished in the North Atlantic? I'm considering includeing it as a source of some extra $ (ditto slave trading [as in John Ellis's Colonies 3])


And for the record: This post will make me a King

Last edited by Case on 19-02-2002 at 16:46

	19-02-2002 17:54									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Case It's a shame as capture was a common fate for warships of the day (it's hard to sink a wooden ship with solid metal cannon balls). I guess the whole prize money thing will have to cover for this

Either that or you can use the crippled ship idea above (granted, which is the product of a missunderstanding, but could work annyway).

quote: Henrik, thanks for that further stuff on the Danes. I've read that Britain 'had' to bombard Copenhagen again in 1807(?), and that Danish forts took pot shots at any British ship which got too close, so I'll definetly include them as part of France.

Ok, more fun for the swedish then

quote: BTW, John Ellis (Aka Patient English) is working on Bonaparte II, and is currently conducting extensive mulitplayer testing

And I've got a beta version!

quote: After reading that barb ships never attack, I've decided to make raiders a seperate civ, and have the Ottomans as Barbs.

If this pirate civ is playable, I want that instead

quote: *Does anyone know when the US changed to it's modern style flag? (eg stars in rows, not in a circle).

From this site wich google found for me:
1912: Flag with 48 stars (New Mexico, Arizona) Executive Order of President Taft dated June 24, 1912 - established proportions of the flag and provided for arrangement of the stars in six horizontal rows of eight each, a single point of each star to be upward.

quote: *Should I include marines as land units or spy units? I'd prefer to have them as spys, but this means that all nations would share the same marine unit picture

Hmm, depends on what role you want them to play. It might be good for other reasons to just have one marine, that leaves 6 free unit slots (presuming every civ would have one).

quote: And for the record: This post will make me a King

Congratulations on your coronation fellow Monarch!

	20-02-2002 03:45									#19
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I missed that stuff on the crippled ship last night
It's a great Idea, and I'll definetly use it I'll give the ships the tireme flag to simulate their historically high likelyhood of sinking.

I'm now using an extended map (made by combining the map I used in the Cruel sea with a map called Silkroad by the same guy - they fitted together perfectly!). This will allow the inclusion of India, and trade with the East Indies.

Attachment: map.gif
This has been downloaded 242 time(s).

	20-02-2002 04:16									#20
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I have a sort of solution to your ship capturing problem.

Basically, you have two identical ship units (for the sake of argument, let's say two Men of War). You set the events file to allow the player to capture one of these Men of War whenever you win a combat against in, but not the other one. This way, you can't be 100% certain you're going to capture a ship.

Of course, this would use up unit slots.

	20-02-2002 05:11									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Paul Hanson I have a sort of solution to your ship capturing problem. Basically, you have two identical ship units (for the sake of argument, let's say two Men of War). You set the events file to allow the player to capture one of these Men of War whenever you win a combat against in, but not the other one. This way, you can't be 100% certain you're going to capture a ship. Of course, this would use up unit slots.

In a strictly MP game though, none of the players would opt to build the unit that could be captured... Well I might but that would only be because I didn't know what I was doing.

[Edit: Didn't see that Case had posted the same thing. Sorry Case]


Here's another idea - although it may have been a little out of date by the early 19th century.
How about randomly created treasure ships for certain civs in isolated (ie: vulnerable) colony areas. Instant bonus to gold but this is lost and given to another player if the ship is sunk before reaching port where it can be disbanded for shields.
If you're using a points system, losing such a ship could be a big hit to your total.
Only question is whether or not you'd need separate events for each attacker/defender combo.

	20-02-2002 11:12									#22
	Got spare money?

The US had the following flag with 15 stars and 15 stripes from 1795 to 1818. After that they reverted to the original 13 stripes and just increased the star number as new states were admitted to the union.

I want the US in the PBEM of this

Attachment: flag.gif
This has been downloaded 156 time(s).

	20-02-2002 12:18									#23
	Increase Your PM Length

I thought the Flag was the strips but the Stars were in a circluar pattern or was that during the American Rev only??

If you wouldn't mind i'd love to take Russia, with her great Batlic and Black Sea Fleets!!

	20-02-2002 19:15									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

IIRC, up until 1818, the custom was to add one star and one stripe to the flag each time a state joined the Union. Eventually, the flag had 18 stripes, at which point Congress realised that this was just getting daft and reverted back to 13 stripes.

	22-02-2002 07:48									#25
	Progress report & more questions Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I've got the tech tree working, placed most cities on the map and done most of the units.

A quick question: I accidently allowed a city with a wonder in it to be destroyed from famine. Is there anyway I can reserect the wonder? Would Civtweak or Civcity do the job?


Here's a sreenshot of American and British ships off the US East Coast (city flags still to be fixed)

Attachment: engage1.gif
This has been downloaded 149 time(s).

	22-02-2002 08:22									#26
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Oh yeah, I've got a name for the scenario as well: 'Engage the Enemy More Closely' (which was Admiral Nelson's last signal at the Battle of Trafalgar)

	22-02-2002 09:36									#27
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You might want to take a look at Gothmog's excellent "Pitts War at Sea," set in the Caribbean in the Seven Year's War. It's excellent. I was amazed at how well the AI simulated naval/amphibious warfare.

It's here: http://users.stargate.net/~harden/pittswar.html

	22-02-2002 12:25									#28
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Nice coastline and ocean tiles! Did you draw them yourself Case?

Even though everyone has already expressed interest... if you have an extra slot that needs to be filled by a reliable player (C'mon I've been playing Civ2 since it's original release and I'm still here!), send me an email, PM, or whatever!

	22-02-2002 15:33									#29
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quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader Nice coastline and ocean tiles! Did you draw them yourself Case?

From memory, they're taken from John Ellis's Colonies scenario.
What do you think of the hills? (see the tiles north of New Haven)

quote: Even though everyone has already expressed interest... if you have an extra slot that needs to be filled by a reliable player (C'mon I've been playing Civ2 since it's original release and I'm still here!), send me an email, PM, or whatever!

As I said before, it's too early to divide up the civs

At present, they're all looking playable though (the pirates should be very interesting for someone without much concious [I'm talking slave trading, smuggling, and privateering]). This will require someone willing to take a 'flexible' attitude to alliances

Does anyone have any suggestions for bringing back the wonder?

	22-02-2002 16:18									#30
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Case As I said before, it's too early to divide up the civs

And as before, everyone are jumping at their civs anyway

quote: At present, they're all looking playable though (the pirates should be very interesting for someone without much concious [I'm talking slave trading, smuggling, and privateering]). This will require someone willing to take a 'flexible' attitude to alliances

As said above, I want the pirates

quote: Does anyone have any suggestions for bringing back the wonder?

The wonder is easy to bring back with some hex editing (see allards hex editing doc) I know no hex editing but I was still able to do that in a scenario of mine a long time ago...