19-02-2002 05:36									#1
	I need to read "What is the best MBT?" thread. Enter the AD-FREE zone

Can anyone help me out, does anyone remember it?

	19-02-2002 05:37									#2
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For your own good, don't read it

	19-02-2002 05:37									#3
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MBT?

	19-02-2002 05:38									#4
	Re: I need to read "What is the best MBT?" thread. Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Evan von Christoph Can anyone help me out, does anyone remember it?

I thought you were on the OT then...

Jon Miller

	19-02-2002 05:45									#5
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Or was that "someone else"?

	19-02-2002 05:48									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Chowlett MBT?

Don't ask, and never read it. Either of those are like staring Medusa in the eye

	19-02-2002 05:48									#7
	Re: I need to read "What is the best MBT?" thread. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Evan von Christoph Can anyone help me out, does anyone remember it?

You're not in the market for your own again are you?

I think Lancer or one of the others had somebody archive the MBT threads.

	19-02-2002 05:49									#8
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Okay, I'll bite

Er, why do you need to read the MBT thread Evan?

	19-02-2002 05:51									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Okay, I'll bite Er, why do you need to read the MBT thread Evan?

Probably needs to get some sleep...
Yeah, maybe Lancer or somebody has an archive version of it on disc. I don't think a copy exists here anymore...

	19-02-2002 05:54									#10
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I don't recall EVC participating in the MBT thread.

	19-02-2002 05:56									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Probably needs to get some sleep... Yeah, maybe Lancer or somebody has an archive version of it on disc. I don't think a copy exists here anymore...

Anyone who possesses that abomination on their computer should delete it promptly!

	19-02-2002 05:59									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Don't ask, and never read it. Either of those are like staring Medusa in the eye

Don't listen to Provost! The MBT threads were a true work of art able to be appreciated only by those with the highest taste.

	19-02-2002 06:02									#13
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Or an extremely abnormally high threshold of boredom

	19-02-2002 06:02									#14
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Especially since the T34 was acclaimed as the best tank of all time.

	19-02-2002 06:04									#15
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What a load of ****. There's no way the T34 was better than a Panther D, IMO, there were just more of them....

And so it begins anew

	19-02-2002 06:07									#16
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One word: Kursk.

	19-02-2002 06:07									#17
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RUN FOR THE HILLS

	19-02-2002 06:10									#18
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quote: One word: Kursk.

Yeah, but the Sovs had good intelligence and were heavily entrenched at Kursk.

By the same argument the Panzer IV was better than the early T-34 because of Smolensk, Kiev, etc.

	19-02-2002 06:10									#19
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EDIT: Oh. MBT = Main Battle Tank.

	19-02-2002 06:11									#20
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Run along - it was before your time

	19-02-2002 06:11									#21
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd What a load of ****. There's no way the T34 was better than a Panther D, IMO, there were just more of them....

Yes but the Panther series had more technical/maintainance problems especially wrt the engine.

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd And so it begins anew

We can but hope!

	19-02-2002 06:14									#22
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quote: Yes but the Panther series had more technical/maintainance problems especially wrt the engine.

True, but by the later production models - I'd say Panther D and above - those problems were getting worked out.

	19-02-2002 06:15									#23
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In terms of overall versatility, the StuG III G was far more important than the Panther series, even though it wasn't a tank, technically.

From a technological standpoint, the Panzer IV series is it - the only prewar design to go all the way through the war, and there are more features in modern MBTs that originated with the Panzer IV than with any WW2 or earlier tank.

	19-02-2002 06:16									#24
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Yeah, but the Sovs had good intelligence and were heavily entrenched at Kursk. By the same argument the Panzer IV was better than the early T-34 because of Smolensk, Kiev, etc.

Actually the famous battle episodes at Kursk were tank on tank.

Do I need to rehearse the sections of Guderian's memoirs where he notes how much German tankers feared the T34 in 1941 and 1942 because rounds from their heaviest tank at that time, the Panzer IV, simply bounced off the T34's armour.

	19-02-2002 06:26									#25
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quote: In terms of overall versatility, the StuG III G was far more important than the Panther series, even though it wasn't a tank, technically.

And technically we're talking about tanks

quote: From a technological standpoint, the Panzer IV series is it - the only prewar design to go all the way through the war, and there are more features in modern MBTs that originated with the Panzer IV than with any WW2 or earlier tank.

Hmmm. Yes that's a good point, but even the Panzer IVH was getting a bit long in the tooth by the end of the war, don't you think?

quote: Do I need to rehearse the sections of Guderian's memoirs where he notes how much German tankers feared the T34 in 1941 and 1942 because rounds from their heaviest tank at that time, the Panzer IV, simply bounced off the T34's armour.

Yes, but the Germans still won most of the battles

quote: Actually the famous battle episodes at Kursk were tank on tank.

And IIRC, the losses were comparable - but favored the Soviets because they had more. I'd have to double check numbers on that though. And I'm primarily talking about the Battle of Prokorhovka, but of course there were others.

	19-02-2002 06:30									#26
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*decides now is the time to use that cyanide capsule in my tooth*

	19-02-2002 06:30									#27
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd And technically we're talking about tanks

15,000 AFV (tank and TD) kills, and a 3:1 armor kill ratio across the entire production series says it's at least an "honorary" tank - especially because the only thing which could tangle with a 1941-1942 T-34 was the early StuG III B through D series, or else 88's in an AT role.

quote: Hmmm. Yes that's a good point, but even the Panzer IVH was getting a bit long in the tooth by the end of the war, don't you think?

No longer in the tooth than the Sherman.

	19-02-2002 06:32									#28
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Something about Chobham armor...

	19-02-2002 06:36									#29
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quote: No longer in the tooth than the Sherman.

True, but up-gunned Shermans (Sherman 76s) weren't actually that bad.

	19-02-2002 06:36									#30
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Floyd, as MTG mentions, the Germans won the battles in 41 and 42 against T34 because more by luck than good planning they had this handy little 88mm anti aircraft gun which they found worked quite well in the anti tank role.

The Tiger and Panther series were developed to counter the T34.