19-02-2002 09:02									#1
	Solution to letting planes sink ships Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I am sick of people complaining about planes not being able to sink ships. Remember Civ 2? An island loaded with planes was a fortress.

So, here is the solution. Pearl Harbor really happened, and it isn't realistic for ships to go around the world 5 or 6 times not running out of fuel.

So, they need a "Limited fuel" rule. Ships must stay 1 space from a friendly city to refuel after about 50 movement points. Or they could stay next to a foreign city and buy fuel for gold.

Ships being refueled while in port can be destroyed by planes. This is possible because planes can be set on aircraft carriers. But the carrier could be destroyed by active ships!

I think this would be a great idea for game balance. Limited fuel for ships, and maybe even limited ammo or fuel for tanks mech infantry.

The limited fuel idea should be good for people that use offensive aircraft carriers, I think you are better off making mass battlecruisers than making carriers. Plus, it's too hard now to destroy improvements now

Tell me what you think, I still hate the fortress idea with mass air destroying endless waves of ships.

	19-02-2002 09:07									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Civ3, meet War in the Pacific.

Average turn time? Ohh... about 4 hours.

But it would be great.

Salve

	19-02-2002 11:30									#3
	Remove this text

An island loaded with planes IS a fortress - in Civ 2 and in the real world.

That is why Civ III got it so wrong.

There should be far more naval units in Civ III, and yes, a refueling (or having a nearby base) would be OK with me, especially with coal-burners such as ironclads that needed LOTS of fuel.

	19-02-2002 11:57									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

The only issue I see is missing a refueling base by 1 or 2 squares, lol!

Anyway, a supply ship with fuel should be a good idea.

Anothor idea I think might be great is having a medic unit to heal land units in enemy terretory. This unit will become available with feudalism, and obsolete when the battlefield medicine wonder is built.

The modern medic can heal any non-vehicle land unit fully in 1 turn. The medic units can be traded like workers and you won't have to pay gold if you have another civ's medic.

Unfortunately, this will require more micro and longer turns. I think some better AI would be required, to manage the medics and to allow the computer to use them properly.

Yeah, I am 100% sure Firaxis will listen to us

Oh well, as long as there is money to be made, they will keep working on the game. Maybe in an expansion, just maybe

	19-02-2002 13:35									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The whole naval warfare concept needs to be fixed in Civ 3, it did not have enought units, you can't sink planes and so on.
But I personally believe they might only fix it in a exspansion pack rather than a path

	19-02-2002 14:02									#6
	Got spare money?

just to inform anyone who doesn't know.

yes the idea of a tanker ship would be very nice.

most navy ships are refueled at sea from other ships. Especially during war time. I'm not sure when the fuelling apparatus was invented for the navy. I'm guessing somewhere around ww2 times. It involves shooting a line accross to the deck of the taner. They then attack a rope. Then a high tension wire is attached. This is the line the pulleys for the fuel hose are on. You get the point.

But it would make naval warfare more interesting. As it is, it's just land units on blue land :

	19-02-2002 14:05									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

but how they left out cruisers is beyong me. Don't get me started on frigates . Although they can be classed with destroyers. Dreadnaughts? Hmmm.

And Firaxis doesn't really understand how the U.S. navy works with regards to the amphibious navy. It's almost a separate entity in itself. They form separate battle groups. LHA's and LHD's being the biggest. But there are also many support ships.

But that could cloud up the game making it slower.

I'm not asking for a real life naval sim. There are many games out there for that.

I just would like to see some ships that were missing put in. With room to add many more (I haven't tested the editor, so I'm not sure).

But I really feel that the LHA/LHD is an important enough ship it must be in the game. But I realize programming this could be a pain. You wouldn't want it to carry F-18 type planes. Only Harriers, and helicopters. With the ability to carry marines and launch an amphibious invasion.

	19-02-2002 14:59									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I dont like the refuel idea
it only makes things more complicated

	19-02-2002 15:05									#9
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa I dont like the refuel idea. It only makes things more complicated

I agree. One step closer to the micromanagement hell.

	19-02-2002 15:18									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

some of us like micromanagement

but I don't like the fuel idea.

I would like to see a refueler unit though.

And most importantly I would like to see battle groups. Kind of like armies but better. And a battle group with a refueler would get a bonus in their movement rate. This would signify refuelings at sea.

and I want LHA's dammit!!!

	19-02-2002 23:21									#11
	Tired of ads?

Rather than refueling & all that, it would be somplest to work ships (or better yet fleets) like air units now work in Civ3. They are based somewhere and perform missions within an operational radius around the base. The radius would be traced through actual connected water tiles, rather than "as the crow flies". "Patrol" orders would cause them to attempt to intercept enemy naval units attempting missions within the patroling unit's operational radius. Air units given "maritime patrol" orders, whether land-based or carrier-based, would launch air strikes against enemy ships attempting missions within their operation radius ("maritime patrolling" aircraft based on patroling carriers would result in the carrier trying to get within air strike distance via interception, followed by the air strike, with the air strike being vulnerable to interception by defending enemy fighters). Most of the details would be "under the hood" - the mechanics of ordering a mission would be as with air units (no micromanagement).

	20-02-2002 00:41									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The main problem there lies with getting units around the world. We do have ships in the Indian ocean after all.

If only it were easier to maintain cities halfway around the world...

Or at least have the option to put naval and air force bases in foreign land.

	20-02-2002 01:52									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

In my opinion, the main problems with naval combat are that planes cannot do much against ships. Sure they can bomb them down to one hp again and again, but that last hp is invincible to aircraft.

The problem with the refuelling idea, while interesting, is that it would lead to micromanagement, but also that ships do not return to base to refuel. They travel with tankers, or in the case of some, never need to refuel (CVNs, SSNs, DLGN/CGNs etc). The problem with including a tanker unit is that it leads to a double standard. Tanks, Mechanized Infantry, etc... need to refuel as well, don't they? Where's the supply truck unit?

My suggestions for naval combat:
-Allow aircraft to sink ships.
-Allow ships the ability to shoot down aircraft.
-Fix air superiority missions.
-Add a Cruiser unit.
-Give submarines invinciblity to galleys, caravels, frigates, and privateers. The iron shot (or arrows) fired by these ships would never cause damage to something under water.
-Create trade routes, a path on the screen where trade of whatever kind occurs, and allow ships to blockade these routes, interdicting trade.
-I have other ideas, but they'll have to wait.

Steele

	20-02-2002 01:58									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Did anyone actually ask Soren or any of the Firaxis boys if they would consider modifying the naval system? They seem to answer quite quickly on things that they WILL NOT be changing...