19-02-2002 19:40									#1
	Some observations on the AI (1.17) Tired of ads?

Playing my first game of Civ3 (the Tournament game 1 = regent level), this is what I see:

- the AI tribes hardly build any city improvements, certainly no temples and libraries since their cultural range doesn't expand
- they keep spending all their money which makes it impossible to get something for my tech (it looks like they have to build wealth in all their cities just to maintain all their units, and/or just keep producing new units, abandoning the old ones when they can't pay for them anymore, two major AI weaknesses in Civ2)
- they often don't road more than one of a resource, thereby foregoing trade opportunities
- despite the above, and while they have way less citizens, they still easily manage to keep up in research, and their tiny and backward towns don't defect even when surrounded by several cultural powerhouses with borders reaching and even bypassing their city square

So far (150 BC, score 600, over 50% of all culture) the game has progressed peacefully, so I can't comment on the AI's war techniques.

	19-02-2002 19:50									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Sometimes it seems completely random weather they road a resource or not. I've seen them leave good resources like Iron or horses alone for a very long time, and this is on deity level. Remember you are playing on regent, don't expect the AI to perform (read:cheat) to it's full potential. As for the building thing, the AI in this game is a bit enthusiastic building settlers. Watch them cover every free space on the board with a city, including completely unproductive tundra. It keeps up in research because of the tech cap (nothing like crippling the human) and because they enthusiatically trade techs and get cheaper techs as you pull ahead.

The AI sucks at war by the way, deity is made much easier using the early war tactic.

	19-02-2002 20:12									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

The A.I. also likes to wait very long to repair the damages of war. And supposing that the A.I. uses the infamous governors it will waste a lot of food and produce less than possible. Most likely the A.I. players admire each other and trade more favorably, though. If they produce artillery the units will stay at home without any active use. The A.I. doesn't use U.U. effectively(sometimes not at all) and doesn't like Barracks or upgrading. It doesn't matter much wether you play Regent or Emperor. At Emperor they have bonus units and discounts(20% off) but that's all.

	19-02-2002 20:35									#4
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Well, I have only played (actually still playing) one game post patch, and on the second easiest level, the AI is making ample use of UUs (Zulu). Also, while it hasn't repaired war damage, neither have I and I suspect that it is for the same reason...
the battle damage is very close to the front line.
Maybe the AI finds it as annoying as I do to have a worker innocently rebuilding a road when all of the sudden an enemy horseman appears from nowhere, goes around my forces, and captures the hapless worker. This theory is reinforced by the fact that the battle damage which I caused deep in their empire with a raiding force (see suicide squads) was repaired right away. I might try some different things with my autosave regarding this, but the AI does seem to love capturing workers...

	19-02-2002 20:42									#5
	Re: Some observations on the AI (1.17) Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Playing my first game of Civ3 (the Tournament game 1 = regent level), this is what I see: - the AI tribes hardly build any city improvements, certainly no temples and libraries since their cultural range doesn't expand - they keep spending all their money which makes it impossible to get something for my tech (it looks like they have to build wealth in all their cities just to maintain all their units, and/or just keep producing new units, abandoning the old ones when they can't pay for them anymore, two major AI weaknesses in Civ2) - they often don't road more than one of a resource, thereby foregoing trade opportunities - despite the above, and while they have way less citizens, they still easily manage to keep up in research, and their tiny and backward towns don't defect even when surrounded by several cultural powerhouses with borders reaching and even bypassing their city square So far (150 BC, score 600, over 50% of all culture) the game has progressed peacefully, so I can't comment on the AI's war techniques.

Wow. Only one game and already whinning.....
Did you like something in the game?


...........................

Spec.

	19-02-2002 20:59									#6
	Re: Some observations on the AI (1.17) Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah - the AI tribes hardly build any city improvements, certainly no temples and libraries since their cultural range doesn't expand

The cultural improvements are not very high in the AI's schedule, but it will build them when it's necessary (i.e. when the AI fears the city might be absorbed culturally)

quote: - they keep spending all their money which makes it impossible to get something for my tech (it looks like they have to build wealth in all their cities just to maintain all their units, and/or just keep producing new units, abandoning the old ones when they can't pay for them anymore, two major AI weaknesses in Civ2)

If you investigate AI cities (after building embassies) you can see, that the AI puts very much money in research. Yes, the AI seldom has money to spare, but it will trade tech for gold per turn, if it can efford it.

quote: - they often don't road more than one of a resource, thereby foregoing trade opportunities

If you need the resource and want it to be traded, send your own worker and build the road yourself. If the AI complains, agree for Right of Passage for 20 turns.

quote: - despite the above, and while they have way less citizens, they still easily manage to keep up in research, and their tiny and backward towns don't defect even when surrounded by several cultural powerhouses with borders reaching and even bypassing their city square

They aggressively trade technologies. You should do the same. The small cities will defect later, it's a random thing. They might have built a lot of military in, that lowers the odds of defecting.

Spectator: Did you see anyone "whine"? Sorry, but I must have missed that!

	19-02-2002 21:33									#7
	Re: Re: Some observations on the AI (1.17) Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

'The cultural improvements are not very high in the AI's schedule, but it will build them when it's necessary (i.e. when the AI fears the city might be absorbed culturally)'

I think it usually builds them pretty much randomly. Most probably due to excessive settler building.

'If you need the resource and want it to be traded, send your own worker and build the road yourself. If the AI complains, agree for Right of Passage for 20 turns.'

Personally I'd rather invade than all this diplomacy crap

'They aggressively trade technologies. You should do the same. The small cities will defect later, it's a random thing. They might have built a lot of military in, that lowers the odds of defecting.'

Not if you want a tech lead though, which is easy to do on regent. Sell off your older techs for high price. I must admit I've seen several cities defect (to me) and I've never before seen an enemy city within my culture borders, is that really possible?

	19-02-2002 21:50									#8
	Re: Re: Re: Some observations on the AI (1.17) Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by DrFell Not if you want a tech lead though, which is easy to do on regent. Sell off your older techs for high price.

That was what I meant...

quote: Originally posted by DrFell I must admit I've seen several cities defect (to me) and I've never before seen an enemy city within my culture borders, is that really possible?

It is, but usually not for long. A good example is, when you invade a country with an ally either in the early game (with destroying size 1 cities) or later (with razing), and your ally succeeds to plopp cities in those gaps earlier, that you could manage to settle there. If you want to keep your ally, you won't want to capture those cities, but seduce them with culture.

So it happened in our French succession game (see Stories forum), 2 German cities already defected, one Greek city still withstands.

	19-02-2002 21:55									#9
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Some observations on the AI (1.17) Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

' That was what I meant... '

When you said 'aggressive tech trading' I though you meant trade your brand new techs. I usually try to hold them back (especially techs like gunpowder/military tradition).

As for the other point, I meant I've never seen an AI city within my culture radius. I've build super culture cities near AI cities and seen the borders go so far as to be adjacent to the actual city, but I've never seen my border envelop the enemy city (without defection to my side first).

	19-02-2002 22:02									#10
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Well, in our game we (France) captured England together with our ally Germany, taking all English cities. But some of them were size 1 and thus razed automatically. Germany managed to build 2 cities in these gaps, before our current player could. They were completely encircled by our cultural borders. After quite a while they defected though, both in the same turn.

	19-02-2002 22:08									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

About trading tech "aggressively", well, in levels up to Monarch I use to sell my top tech in the ancient era, but only for other tech or for gold per turn. This slows down the AI research. After a while, you will notice, that the AI can't efford your newest tech anymore. Thus, you made a tech lead with "aggressive trading". In the medieval era I usually have a tech lead and trade some techs only, if I built the wonder.

In Emperor and Deity I did not yet manage to get a tech lead in the first 2 eras.

	20-02-2002 02:51									#12
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Ribannah,

In response to your observations:

1) The AI go all out in the first part of the game building settlers and using them to found cities wherever spots are left until the map is full. Once this is over, they'll start to build more city improvements.

2) They rarely have much cash, but can often afford enormous per/turn payments of gold instead. Exploiting this will lower their rate of research.

3) No roading of resources is par for the course. You can often trade one of your own copies for a lot of compensation, even though they could easily road up their own! I think that when they actually do road a resource, it's probably by accident!

However, one point about strategic reources is that they will not "run out" until they have been roaded and used, but I doubt the AI are delaying their roading because of this.

4) They research must faster than in CivII. A tech cost is also partly determined and modified by how many civs have acquired it. For example, if the cost of a tech is 100 beakers and there are 5 civs, one of which has acquired it, the cost for the others drops to something like 80. Thus, those that fall behind find it easier to catch up, and withholding new techs is seldom as effective as trading them for gold.

As for absorbing their puny cities, just be patient. You can often completely surround a small AI city with your own that are oozing with culture, and it will often hold out for a surprising amount of time. The quickest way I've found to absorb AI cities is to culture bomb them very soon after they were founded. If your own city(s) are in between the AI target and its capitol, the odds of absorption go up. If the AI city is closer to your capitol than it is to their own, it is more susceptible to a culture war, too.

By the way, good to see you around! A few of us have been fooling around with OCC on the strategy forum. Playing OCC is much more challenging in CivIII, especially on deity.

After being away for awhile this summer and fall, I finally did check out your "Final Countdown" game on the civII forum. Superb!

solo

	20-02-2002 13:30									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by solo In response to your observations:2) They rarely have much cash, but can often afford enormous per/turn payments of gold instead. Exploiting this will lower their rate of research.

From what I figured out their research rate remains stable at 40% no matter what you do.

	20-02-2002 16:53									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by solo As for absorbing their puny cities, just be patient. You can often completely surround a small AI city with your own that are oozing with culture, and it will often hold out for a surprising amount of time

In my experiences, it probably has much more to do with their governments than anything else.

I had 2 enemy cities on my continent, with my capital near them and their capitals even further away than my capital. They stayed with their respective civs for almost the entire game, despite the fact that my cultural borders extended out very far, theirs had yet to even grow once.

However near the end of the game, the 2 civilizations that owned the respective cities went to war. After about 10 or so turns, one city turns over to me. The next turn the other does as well. My guess is that they went from Democracy to Communism, and that enabled the cities to be culturally converted.

	20-02-2002 20:39									#15
	Re: Re: Some observations on the AI (1.17) Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Spectator Wow. Only one game and already whinning..... Did you like something in the game? ........................... Spec.

Piss off Fanboy!

It's an observational and discussion oriented post, there's not even a semblance of whine in it. If you wanna hijack a thread with your pathetic whining about whining, find one devoted to it, stay the hell off of constructive threads!

	20-02-2002 22:36									#16
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Pius,

I've seen it range from 70% down to 30%, when investigating AI cities, with the percentage often decreasing after large per/turn gold payments, and can not explain why you always observe an AI research rate of 40%. Sometimes it takes more than one big deal like this to see a change in the rate, though. My observations are based on games before installing the 1.17f patch, though, so things might have changed.

Shanky,

Very good point, and I agree that a change in the type of government, the element of war weariness, and happiness levels are all very significant factors. I'm sure these things often trigger the cultural assimilation of a city that is susceptible. It could be that individually, one or more of these factors have a stronger effect than distance from capitols, too, but I've noticed quick, and sometimes surprising, assimilations of AI cities after building a new Palace right next to them. Capitol distances play a significant role in the reversion of conquered cities, too, as was pointed out in a thread by Firaxians in the strategy forum.

	21-02-2002 19:20									#17
	Re: Re: Some observations on the AI (1.17) Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The cultural improvements are not very high in the AI's schedule, but it will build them when it's necessary (i.e. when the AI fears the city might be absorbed culturally)

Hardly. Persia was finally starting to, but way too late and Bactra defected in 410 AD (yeah!)
Zululand was just sitting there and didn't even try to keep Isandhlwanah which joined Babylon in 420 AD, despite being situated across the inland sea. Maybe they will pay more attention at higher levels.

quote: If you investigate AI cities (after building embassies) you can see, that the AI puts very much money in research. Yes, the AI seldom has money to spare, but it will trade tech for gold per turn, if it can efford it.

Well, it won't. After installing the newest patch the AI refuses to give money per turn, not even $1 in cases when they gladly give a lump sum of over $20, and not even for all my cities, tech, maps, resources and money AND $1000 per turn from me!

quote: If you need the resource and want it to be traded, send your own worker and build the road yourself. If the AI complains, agree for Right of Passage for 20 turns.[.quote] Yes, that's exactly what I did. They yearn for those passage rights! [quote]They aggressively trade technologies. You should do the same.

I'd love to, but they rarely have something of interest to trade for. My new techs now come at a rate of 1 in 4 turns (maximum speed) with my science rate at 30-40%, soon I will run out of things to build in my cities (just founded New Ur).
My guess is that regent level is simply too easy.

By the way, one of my two Iron sources ran out before I even used it once.

	21-02-2002 20:16									#18
	Re: Re: Re: Some observations on the AI (1.17) Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Well, it won't. After installing the newest patch the AI refuses to give money per turn, not even $1 in cases when they gladly give a lump sum of over $20, and not even for all my cities, tech, maps, resources and money AND $1000 per turn from me!

Well, depends. The AI never pays gold per turn if it doesn't have a positive monetary balance. They may have 1000 gold to spare, but refuse to give you 1 gold per turn, because they actually have a zero or negative balance. The advisor's answer in this case is "They would never accept such a deal".

quote: I'd love to, but they rarely have something of interest to trade for. My new techs now come at a rate of 1 in 4 turns (maximum speed) with my science rate at 30-40%, soon I will run out of things to build in my cities (just founded New Ur). My guess is that regent level is simply too easy.

4 turn tech rounds in Regent with 30-40%? Do you have your Golden Age right now? If not, this sounds weird.

	21-02-2002 20:33									#19
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No, no Golden Age yet (missed out on the Great Library), but I have Libraries in about all my cities and Universities as well as Courthouses in many. Babylon is a Democracy, I have built the Colossus as well as the Forbidden Palace, and have a supply of 7 luxuries since I founded Adab at the other end of the world sitting on Spice and rushed a harbor .

	21-02-2002 21:05									#20
	Put an end to popups!

Ah I see. Sounds you are somewhere in the end of the medieval age. When you get in the industrial age, techs will get noticeably more expensive. Post patch 1.17 the AI's are told to trade much more with each other and might have all money spent this way. I haven't yet finished an entire game post-patch, but yes - a lot seems to have changed with science and trade.

	22-02-2002 06:08									#21
	Re: Re: Re: Some observations on the AI (1.17) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah By the way, one of my two Iron sources ran out before I even used it once.

Resources come and go based on a possibility of disappearance percentage and bears no relation to roading, use or non-use. It can be changed in the editor.

By the way I'm still only dreaming of working up to the "too easy" Regent level, so, much envy.

	22-02-2002 22:03									#22
	Re: Re: Re: Some observations on the AI (1.17) Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by bahoo Piss off Fanboy! It's an observational and discussion oriented post, there's not even a semblance of whine in it. If you wanna hijack a thread with your pathetic whining about whining, find one devoted to it, stay the hell off of constructive threads!

First off, I'm not a fanboy. I like Civ3 even with it's flaws. But maybe that's just because I haven't been waiting for that game for the last 3 years like someothers here, I've been able to do something with my life cuz...I dont know....I have one!!!

Second, what I ment by that is that there's no way that can be her first game and second I dont like liars. Read her post carefuly before answering like a moron, moron. The only reason why this thread was put there is just to follow the "AI sucks" trend and get some attention. We probably have 1000 threads like this one in here and it didn't mention anything new. And I would also like you to read this.

First, observation on the AI:http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=42894

And a real constructive thread and not a "trendy" thread:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=42992

And if you can't read right, PLEASE put me on your ignore list.

Spec.

	22-02-2002 23:29									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have observed the AI demonstrating a knowledge of the value of resourses. Playing on Emperor the AI roads every resourse and builds fortresses on some of them.

Spec: Easy man. Cut Ribannah some slack and see where she goes with it. I can't agree that her first post was a whine. [Edit. Maybe she meant first game *with 1.17* /Edit]

Salve

	22-02-2002 23:36									#24
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Some observations on the AI (1.17) Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by davidttm Resources come and go based on a possibility of disappearance percentage and bears no relation to roading, use or non-use. It can be changed in the editor. By the way I'm still only dreaming of working up to the "too easy" Regent level, so, much envy.

Sorry, but resourses do not disappear if there is no road on them. You can save a spare by not building a road to it until your other source dries up.

Salve