20-02-2002 00:55									#1
	Who lost China's Internet? Support Apolyton

Found a good article about the Internet Situation in China. Read here: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conte...00/922dgmtd.asp

FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!

These Chinese Officials treat human rights with their shiny commie boots AND WE LICK THEM!!!!!
Governments like the Chinese should not be supported in ANY way. **** the big market!

ata

	20-02-2002 00:57									#2
	Re: Who lost China's Internet? Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa These Chinese Officials treat human rights with their shiny commie boots AND WE LICK THEM!!!!! Governments like the Chinese should not be supported in ANY way. **** the big market!

What's your opinion of the American embargo on Cuba?

	20-02-2002 01:09									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Do you think embargos ever work? Cuba, North Korea, Irak don't seem to change for the better.

I'm all for making businesses with these countries. We make big bucks, and lots of their people will become very pissed, thus forcing changes.

	20-02-2002 01:14									#4
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Is there some law that says China must treat their citizens with the same rights as americans?

Just further proof that americans think their way of life should be forced on everyone.

If the chinese didn't like it they could revolt

	20-02-2002 01:39									#5
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Ugh, I hate this debate...

I'm a devil's advocate in and of myself. I'm forever seeing both sides of the argument and, while I normally support one, I can see exactly where it's wrong and the other is right.

However, I believe that certain human rights (freedom of speech, movement, thought, life, etc.) are completely essential and as such should never ever ever ever be infringed. End of story. China doesn't uphold them, therefore China is wrong. Period.

	20-02-2002 02:06									#6
	Re: Who lost China's Internet? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa These Chinese Officials treat human rights with their shiny commie boots AND WE LICK THEM!!!!! Governments like the Chinese should not be supported in ANY way. **** the big market! ata

And you think that by stopping trade or boycotting the Olympics or whatever, you are going to HELP the situation? Isolating and closing China will only foster resentment among the Chinese for the West, and strengthen the commie government's position. Oh yes, if you stop trade right now, you're doing the commies a real big favor - they have so much more propaganda to use, and they have greater ease of survival and doing mischief (like killing people, for instance) in a country that's more closed.

I mean, I don't like the commies either, but for goodness sake, don't punish the Chinese people because of their rulers. It's almost like those sanctions on Iraq and Cuba. The rulers sit in their shiny palaces and have parties while the population suffers from the sanctions. Of course, the rulers will bring on their latest anti-American speeches and that only makes the population support their rulers more.

If you really want to help, then bring in the trade! Only with communication can this situation ever be changed. Censored communication, yes. But closing everything results in no communication, and that's much worse.

	20-02-2002 02:25									#7
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It's easier to distroy than to create. So we let them build their firewalls. WE built the damned things, and we can surely figure ways around them at a significantly faster pace than they can counter our "ways around." In the end, the genie that is the free-flow of information *cannot* be contained. China's leadership is living in a dream if they believe otherwise.

-=Vel=-

	20-02-2002 02:43									#8
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exactly.

While I don't agree with restricting freedom of speech (although the U.S. and Europe does it to a small extent- I long for the day I can say bomb on an airplane JK ). I don't agree with sanctions for that nation.

As has been pointed out above. Information will get through. Goverment action does not accomplish things (at least for our weak democracies ). But freedom of speech does accomplish things (for better or for worse). Eventually things will change. Patience is the key. But enforcing dumb sanctions won't accomplish much. Providing China with even more internet access will accomplish much more.

Long hail the flow of information- no matter how bad it is

	20-02-2002 02:46									#9
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well cuba doesnt treat its citizen like dogs!

Human Rights is one thing that EVERY COUNTRY ON ****ING EARTH HAS TO ACCEPT AND ENFORCE!!!!

And no I dont think that an embargo would help much BUT the way it is now, everybody being ****ing nice to them, not saying a word about all those ****ing forced abolitions, students that get ****ing slayed, "other" thinking people that get arrested and ****ing shot. Nobody ****ing complains! ****ing hell!!!

Dont greet these idiots formally. Dont travel there. Treat this government like they treat their citizen!
When they want something they have to beg to get it. Nothing will be offered to them!

I hate stupid governments thinking they know so much ****ing better.

ata

	20-02-2002 03:06									#10
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Havent you heard? Humans dont have rights.

	20-02-2002 03:09									#11
	They are all playing the same game. Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Human Rights is one thing that EVERY COUNTRY ON ****ING EARTH HAS TO ACCEPT AND ENFORCE!!!! And no I dont think that an embargo would help much BUT the way it is now, everybody being ****ing nice to them, not saying a word about all those ****ing forced abolitions, students that get ****ing slayed, "other" thinking people that get arrested and ****ing shot. Nobody ****ing complains! ****ing hell!!! Dont greet these idiots formally. Dont travel there. Treat this government like they treat their citizen! When they want something they have to beg to get it. Nothing will be offered to them! I hate stupid governments thinking they know so much ****ing better.

Typically speaking, politicians don't rag on each other unless they have something to gain from it.

	20-02-2002 03:12									#12
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does your avatar show a masturbating smiley?

	20-02-2002 03:13									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion does your avatar show a masturbating smiley?

Yes. Deal with it.

	20-02-2002 03:16									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa well cuba doesnt treat its citizen like dogs! Human Rights is one thing that EVERY COUNTRY ON ****ING EARTH HAS TO ACCEPT AND ENFORCE!!!! And no I dont think that an embargo would help much BUT the way it is now, everybody being ****ing nice to them, not saying a word about all those ****ing forced abolitions, students that get ****ing slayed, "other" thinking people that get arrested and ****ing shot. Nobody ****ing complains! ****ing hell!!! Dont greet these idiots formally. Dont travel there. Treat this government like they treat their citizen! When they want something they have to beg to get it. Nothing will be offered to them! I hate stupid governments thinking they know so much ****ing better. ata

I understand that you have a lot of hatred for commies, but I'd say that "not traveling there", "not trading" and so on are not the way to help the nation get rid of the commies.

It's like you have a headache. Are you going to say, "I hate this ache" and then try to crush your own skull in order to destroy the ache? I don't think so.

What you're advocating, basically, is to get rid of communism in China by destroying the country's economy and livelihood of its people in the process.

Sometimes I wonder, do you hate communism because you want to help the people who have suffered under it? .... or do you hate it just because, you hate it?

If you hate communism because of the cruelty it inflicts on its people, then for goodness sake don't join it in inflicting even more cruelty. The Chinese don't have rights. Don't take away their income too. I'd say that, between a commie bureaucrat who's taken away your right to demonstrate, and an American who's denied you the right to eat, you'd hate the American more.

	20-02-2002 03:17									#15
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I think its ****ing cool.

	20-02-2002 03:26									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa well cuba doesnt treat its citizen like dogs!

Yes, they do. That's one of the perks available to any self-respecting dictator.

Now to do a 180...

ranskaldan: I'm going to have to question the pay off our policy of contact with the Chinese government has given us.

1) We have a government who's pilots damage our aircraft and kidnap our personel in order to demand an apology from us over the whole incident.

2) We have a government that still represses any move toward democratization.

3) We have a government signing treaties in order to form an axis to oppose our interests.

I could go on further but this seems like enough for now.

	20-02-2002 03:35									#17
	Dino Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

There's no way you can support the assertion that Cuba has a worse human rights record than China does. Cuba's government violates its citizens' rights, but much less so than those of many other Latin American countries, and definitely less so than that of China.

	20-02-2002 03:39									#18
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse There's no way you can support the assertion that Cuba has a worse human rights record than China does.

What I'm saying is that one can not call for a boycott on one repressive regime and then say that we must be soft on a similar regime. I have no intention of argueing that Castro is a kin to Satan himself because it would be irrelevent.

	20-02-2002 03:52									#19
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc 1) We have a government who's pilots damage our aircraft and kidnap our personel in order to demand an apology from us over the whole incident. 2) We have a government that still represses any move toward democratization. 3) We have a government signing treaties in order to form an axis to oppose our interests. I could go on further but this seems like enough for now.

Well, BEFORE China opened up 20 years ago,

1) We had a government which gave no economic freedom to its people, with fixed prices and absolutely no competition in nearly all sectors, from manufacturing, to retail, to services.

2) We had a government that regularly suppressed the educated class, stopped the school system, and denounced education as irrelevant to the revolution.

3) We had a government which caused famines, killing tens of millions of people, and ruined the country's economy in the process.

None of those above points apply to China today, just a mere 20 years later.

True, China's records remain horrific if we compare them to that of the West. But the amount of improvement that has occurred in the past twenty years as a RESULT of the open-door policy is simply astounding. Thus, to propose that we should close down China by stopping trade, tourism, and the Olympics, is simply illogical.

	20-02-2002 03:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Yes, they do. That's one of the perks available to any self-respecting dictator. Now to do a 180... ranskaldan: I'm going to have to question the pay off our policy of contact with the Chinese government has given us. 1) We have a government who's pilots damage our aircraft and kidnap our personel in order to demand an apology from us over the whole incident. 2) We have a government that still represses any move toward democratization. 3) We have a government signing treaties in order to form an axis to oppose our interests. I could go on further but this seems like enough for now.

1. That's up to debate who caused the accident. Chinese all believe it was the Americans whose fault is greater. I mean if you spy on another country and then got caught, you should expect VIP treatment.

2. Yes, "STILL" is the keyword here. If you know what China was like 10 years ago, you would see that the 'human rights' situations there have indeed improved.

3. With whom did China form an axis?

	20-02-2002 03:54									#21
	Dino Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Maybe you should simply find a middle ground where you aren't completely embargoing one nation while giving the other "most favoured nation" trading status. I don't think I'm the one with the inconsistent view here.

Go softer on the one you've been *******s to for the last 40 years, go harder on the one whose ass you've been licking for the last 25.

	20-02-2002 03:56									#22
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I agree with the free information thing: it will get throug, it is just too hard to contain.

And maybe the cuban embargo is not supported by anyone in the US gov, they just think they'd lose face if it were abandoned.

	20-02-2002 03:59									#23
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KH, the middle ground would be an interesting thing. What would it be? 50% tariffs on all goods for both nations? I don't think that is going to work.

Anyway, what Dino was saying was either embargo both or have Normal Trade Relations (Most Favored Nation isn't a status anymore, it has changed to NTR) with both nations.

	20-02-2002 04:02									#24
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I don't think I'm the one with the inconsistent view here.

That's very good. I'm not being inconsistent either because placing an embargo on a country simply because you don't like the government is a useless policy.

Goingonit: And maybe the cuban embargo is not supported by anyone in the US gov, they just think they'd lose face if it were abandoned.

What they would loose is votes in the politically important Cuban-American community who so the maintaining the embargo as a hot button issue.

	20-02-2002 04:03									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit IAnd maybe the cuban embargo is not supported by anyone in the US gov, they just think they'd lose face if it were abandoned.

I think that's the case. Embargos generally don't work and are bad for business.

	20-02-2002 04:06									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Transcend I think that's the case. Embargos generally don't work and are bad for business.

Bad for the people who're being embargoed against too. Very bad.

You can't have an embargo against a government, only against an entire country. And that defeats the entire purpose of the embargo, unless you hate the entire country and want to wipe a race off the face of the planet.

	20-02-2002 04:08									#27
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Bad for the people who're being embargoed against too. Very bad. You can't have an embargo against a government, only against an entire country. And that defeats the entire purpose of the embargo, unless you hate the entire country and want to wipe a race off the face of the planet.

They work against democratic countries where popular pressure can cause the government to change their ways.

	20-02-2002 04:14									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit They work against democratic countries where popular pressure can cause the government to change their ways.

ok.... but give an example so that i can see how this works.

In most cases, especially in dictatorships, the people will tend to hate a foreign power (eg America) more than their own government.

This is because the nation's government will tend to demonize the foreigners, thus conveniently shifting all the blame away.

	20-02-2002 04:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan ok.... but give an example so that i can see how this works. In most cases, especially in dictatorships, the people will tend to hate a foreign power (eg America) more than their own government. This is because the nation's government will tend to demonize the foreigners, thus conveniently shifting all the blame away.

South Africa. That's everybody's example, I know, but it did work.

	20-02-2002 04:18									#30
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan None of those above points apply to China today, just a mere 20 years later.

I forgot to mention the fact that people are sentenced to death for bringing Bibles of all things into the country.

Other than the fact that the Chinese Communist Party has decided to put away the sledgehammer when dealing out political and religious repression, I don't see any substantive improvement in many areas,

quote: Thus, to propose that we should close down China by stopping trade, tourism, and the Olympics, is simply illogical.

You're mixing two different issues here. Trade and tourism are different from allowing them to host the Olympics or membership.

The Olympics and sitting on the WTO symbolize for the Chinese government acceptance by the international community. Something which they have not earned and nor do they deserve it at this point.