20-02-2002 06:37									#1
	Making armor more realisitc Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The simplest way to make armor more realisitc, and at the same time encourage the use of combined arms, if only by the player, is to make all armor vehicles (Tanks, Panzers, Radar Arty, Mech Inf. Modern Armor ) 'wheeled'. The fact is that tanks can't navigate Jungles of mountains unless there are roads, which was one fo the reasons for heavy looses by both the USSR and US in their respective experiences in Afghanistan and Vietnam. By making these vehicles armored, roads through difficult terrains becomes cruccial, and if any likn is cut, it forces the player to bring in workers,a nd the inf to protect them, to rebuild the road.

This is a simple tweak anyone can make in the editor, and it really should be seen as standard by anyone who claims they want 'reality' in their game, or anyone sick of the overpowering nature of fast units.

	20-02-2002 06:41									#2
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I think that's a really clever idea GePap!

I like anything that makes the units more varied or specialized. And that kind of terrain really is a job for infantry.

	20-02-2002 06:46									#3
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I like it. It's a simple change in the editor.


Good idea.

	20-02-2002 07:01									#4
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Excellent idea!

Also a good idea on rivers...even in grassland.

They have an Army Corp of engineers for a reason

	20-02-2002 07:03									#5
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that would just piss me off

now I just realized today why I never built chariots in the past. They won't unload from a galley onto jungle . yes it's been a while since I played. I forgot about that.

	20-02-2002 08:37									#6
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I have seen this in some mods, and in those long discussions about how unrelistic the combat is the idea that terrain matters always came up- but this idea of making armor 'wheeled', which seems something elementary, never really came up- I think it is because it would make the game harder for those that just use armor rushing near the end of the game. Heavens forbid a square my tanks can't take!

	20-02-2002 09:27									#7
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A very common sense and practical idea. Could have some very interesting and varied battles happening.

	20-02-2002 09:39									#8
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But how would i recreate the Ardennes offensive of Germany in 1940 and 1944???

	20-02-2002 10:47									#9
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The Germans levelled the forest in front of their tanks, in effect, they built roads. Crappy roads, mere paths without trees, but thats what they were, and thats what you'll have to do.

Steele

EDIT:

This is a very good idea. I am going to go do it immeadiatly. My problem is that I don't want my modern tanks requiring accompaniment by WW1 Infantry. Obviously, some more serious modding is required. I'll make a modern foot infantry unit.

Steele

	20-02-2002 11:36									#10
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For me, I don't think a new infantry unit is needed.

Except for the anti tank abilities, late WWI infantry is not vastly different from modern infantry, I don't think. The tactics developed at the end of WWI were pretty current.

Being trained to work with armor is a big difference, but I think the mechanized infantry units represent that. There are still guys just on foot.

I think in the broad Civ terms of abstraction, WWI and modern infantry wouldn't be too different (since there is no way to specify anti tank abilities, comparable to pikemen vs mounted units in Civ2).

I kind of see Civ3 infantry as representing end of WWI to modern foot soldiers. I see riflemen as late Napoleonic to early WWI units. That's just how I see them though.

I'm sure military history types will love to disagree with me now...

Quick Edit: Remember, we are talking in Civ terms here, where one unit represents the same type of troops for a long period. In those very broad terms, I think WWI to modern would be one unit (since anti tank can't be specifically represented).

	20-02-2002 11:45									#11
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Nato, you have a good point, one that I did not think of. However, I do draw a distinction between guys with bolt-action rifles and guys with automatic weapons. I was thinking of modding Marines and Paratroopers into one "special-ops" unit, and using the other to create a "Light Infantry, Modern Infantry" kinda thing. This unit would be the modern equivalent of the regular infantry.

Steele

	20-02-2002 11:57									#12
	Re: Making armor more realisitc Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by GePap The simplest way to make armor more realisitc, and at the same time encourage the use of combined arms, if only by the player, is to make all armor vehicles (Tanks, Panzers, Radar Arty, Mech Inf. Modern Armor ) 'wheeled'. The fact is that tanks can't navigate Jungles of mountains unless there are roads, which was one fo the reasons for heavy looses by both the USSR and US in their respective experiences in Afghanistan and Vietnam. By making these vehicles armored, roads through difficult terrains becomes cruccial, and if any likn is cut, it forces the player to bring in workers,a nd the inf to protect them, to rebuild the road. This is a simple tweak anyone can make in the editor, and it really should be seen as standard by anyone who claims they want 'reality' in their game, or anyone sick of the overpowering nature of fast units.

Idea is great, but there is on problem:
If Tank is wheeled them Mech. Inf. should be wheeled.

But if you get Computers (mech. inf.) you can't build Infantry anymore so you don't have good mountain defender.

Although...

Paratroopers could help.

	20-02-2002 11:58									#13
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quote: Originally posted by whosurdaddy But how would i recreate the Ardennes offensive of Germany in 1940 and 1944???

While I know it was in jest, 'wheeled' units can cross forests. The two types of terrain they can't cross without roads are Jungle and mountains.

	20-02-2002 12:12									#14
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Sounds cool Steele. Combining Marines and Paratroopers is a pretty good way to free up a unit slot.

I guess it would make a difference to me to be the guy with the automatic weapon, if I just absolutely had to make a choice .

	20-02-2002 12:50									#15
	Re: Making armor more realisitc Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by GePap The simplest way to make armor more realisitc, and at the same time encourage the use of combined arms, if only by the player, is to make all armor vehicles (Tanks, Panzers, Radar Arty, Mech Inf. Modern Armor ) 'wheeled'. The fact is that tanks can't navigate Jungles of mountains unless there are roads, which was one fo the reasons for heavy looses by both the USSR and US in their respective experiences in Afghanistan and Vietnam. By making these vehicles armored, roads through difficult terrains becomes cruccial, and if any likn is cut, it forces the player to bring in workers,a nd the inf to protect them, to rebuild the road. This is a simple tweak anyone can make in the editor, and it really should be seen as standard by anyone who claims they want 'reality' in their game, or anyone sick of the overpowering nature of fast units.

Aah, great minds think alike. Or is it fools seldom differ? Anyway, I've come up with the same idea. I've also added it to all my mounted units as well. So only my foot soldiers can cross Mountains or Jungle without a road. It certainly puts a damper on the dreaded Cavalry charge!

	20-02-2002 12:57									#16
	Re: Re: Making armor more realisitc Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by player1 Idea is great, but there is on problem: If Tank is wheeled them Mech. Inf. should be wheeled. But if you get Computers (mech. inf.) you can't build Infantry anymore so you don't have good mountain defender. Although... Paratroopers could help.

Then don't allow Infantry to upgrade, just use the Mech. Inf. as a speciality unit for tough situations. It doesn't make sense anyway, there will always be a need for a grunt in the field. Armies will never be able to eliminate the common foot soldier.

	20-02-2002 13:06									#17
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quote: Originally posted by nato Combining Marines and Paratroopers is a pretty good way to free up a unit slot.

Why is that an issue? There's no limit to how many units you can have as far as I can tell. Just grab the MultiTool and make as many as you want. Or add a name in the editor and manually insert the graphics.

	20-02-2002 13:10									#18
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The idea is great.

Sure give Paras and Marines (and Cav) a new lease on life.

Can I be allowed to say *gasp* more strategic depth. Oh my ...

Everybody run (after you beat me to a pulp.)

Salve

	20-02-2002 15:51									#19
	Re: Re: Re: Making armor more realisitc Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Willem Then don't allow Infantry to upgrade, just use the Mech. Inf. as a speciality unit for tough situations. It doesn't make sense anyway, there will always be a need for a grunt in the field. Armies will never be able to eliminate the common foot soldier.

In case of not allowing Infantry to upgrade, we'll have Infanrty drafts wich is OK by me.

But then, it should be chaged defense of Modern Tanks to 14, just to make Mehc. Inf. (18) a little more usefull.

P.S.
Giving Mech. Inf. movement of 3, looks logical, but has one drawback:
You can get Mech. Inf. before Modern Armor, wich makes them quickest unit (a little stange).

	20-02-2002 17:01									#20
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I wish they'd used terran more in relation to units. The tank idea sound like a good one, but I think it you made it not able to go up mountains you would have to balanace that by making it more pwoweful.

	20-02-2002 20:15									#21
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I normally don't make changes to the game via the editor, but I have to admit this one makes perfect sense. The only issue is the loss of Infantry upon discovering computers, but I don't really see that as a big deal.

So Tanks, Modern Armor and Mech Infantry should be "wheeled." Damn, no more charging into AI territory and setting up shop on a mountain with 30 Modern Armor. Heh. Oh, well.

Actually, to be nitpicky, wheeled units (chariot, catapult, cannon, artillery) should be prevented from going into/onto Mountains/Jungle/Forest or crossing rivers without roads. *Tracked* units should be able to cross rivers and get into forests, but still no Mts. or Jungle. Does the editor allow for the creation of another unit flag like Tracked? I doubt it, but I haven't really played around with it.

-Arrian

	20-02-2002 20:23									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Deathwalker I wish they'd used terran more in relation to units. The tank idea sound like a good one, but I think it you made it not able to go up mountains you would have to balanace that by making it more pwoweful.

Why? Not allowing tanks into mountains etc. means that Armies can play a bigger role in those situations, provided they're made up of foot soldiers. And I agree, it would be nice if the terrain would factor in to a unit's abilities more. I was thinking it would be nice to give Archers/Longbowmen a bonus if they were in a Forest, but the game won't let me do that. Or a camel riding warrior who can only move in the desert.

	20-02-2002 20:29									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The only issue is the loss of Infantry upon discovering computers, but I don't really see that as a big deal.

Well like I said, just don't allow the Infantry to upgrade. I'm glad someone pointed that out, I hadn't really thought of that. I guess I'll have to make that change.

quote: Actually, to be nitpicky, wheeled units (chariot, catapult, cannon, artillery) should be prevented from going into/onto Mountains/Jungle/Forest or crossing rivers without roads. *Tracked* units should be able to cross rivers and get into forests, but still no Mts. or Jungle. Does the editor allow for the creation of another unit flag like Tracked? I doubt it, but I haven't really played around with it.

That would be good, but unfortunately the Wheeled flag is all we have to work with. It would be great if we could select which trerrain is off limits, but we can't.

	20-02-2002 20:47									#24
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You wouldn't want wheeled units to be too restricted terrain wise, otherwise you'd end up with the 'useless unit' problem, which has plagued game designers since the dawn of time.

	20-02-2002 21:17									#25
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quote: Originally posted by DrFell You wouldn't want wheeled units to be too restricted terrain wise, otherwise you'd end up with the 'useless unit' problem, which has plagued game designers since the dawn of time.

Well all that's required is to build a road, and they would no longer have any restrictions. So you would just be forced to plan your attacks better. Or use an alternative unit that's better suited to that situation.

	20-02-2002 21:18									#26
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Is there any way to tweak the game in order to be able to build both Infantry and Mech. Inf?

	20-02-2002 21:19									#27
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I hadn't thought of the Infantry changeup, though I agree, one could keep infantry around, or beef up Paras and Marines and use them in such situations (hey, we sent the marines to afghaninstan, not the 1st Armored Division). I also agree in lowering modern armor defense bellow that of Mech Inf.

On another note, Artillery isn't wheeled, nor should it be- men can drag guns up mountaints- the Viet Mihn did it in 1954 vs. The French.

	20-02-2002 21:24									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Well all that's required is to build a road, and they would no longer have any restrictions. So you would just be forced to plan your attacks better. Or use an alternative unit that's better suited to that situation.

Yeah but are the roads counted when they're in enemy territory? Because if this is so then they can be made very weak. I think they're ok as they are now though.

	20-02-2002 21:56									#29
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Is there any way to tweak the game in order to be able to build both Infantry and Mech. Inf?

Yes, in the editor. Just set the Infantry's upgrade to none in the Units area.

	20-02-2002 21:59									#30
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quote: Originally posted by DrFell Yeah but are the roads counted when they're in enemy territory? Because if this is so then they can be made very weak. I think they're ok as they are now though.

Certainly, you can get Catapults etc. into an enemy city surrounded by jungle now, if there's a road. It's just that you don't get the movement bonus.