22-02-2002 03:43									#1
	Thinking to yourself.... how? Increase the size of your Attachments

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine today about thought processes. Usually I think things in images. If I am trying to solve a puzzle, add up numbers I use abstract imagery to do it. When people are talking I abstractly see the scene in my head.

I hardly ever think of things in words, and if I do I end up talking to myself. As a result I am a bit slow on puns based on words that sound similar, but a lot quicker on "visual" camparison jokes.

Anyway what precipitated the discussion was my friend said that he knew he could speak fluent French because he could think in French. I commented that I don't even "think" in English. To me language is a nothing more than a communication interface. That is, without language you can still think, but expression is hampered.

So how do you think? Or more philosophically - What is thinking?

	22-02-2002 03:51									#2
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Don't know but I was always getting pissed at those old fart full of themselves linguistic academic dinosaur professor who kept claiming that "if you can't say it, you can't feel it and you can't think it".

Although I never had any problems with (Greek) words and vocabulary and I egotistically take pride at what I think of as great personal eloquence(gotta think you have something ), they always got on my nerves these paleolithic academic remains.

So let's say a simple farmer who only had basic education and never got around to reading Aristotle's Rhetorics can't feel the joy of his daughter getting married for example simply because he can't "express" it with more than 100 words?

bull

and of course what about a fully distored G-string or dancing or singing, or painting, sculpture etc?[/minor threadjack]

	22-02-2002 03:57									#3
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Mainly in words, but I've noticed that since begining to read books on a regular basis I can imagine images and scenes much better and more often then I used to be able to. But I started reading around the age of 15 - so it's possible that it's not really relevant, since alot's changing in the body around that age, regardless.

	22-02-2002 04:25									#4
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In words and images. Sometimes, real great parts of books/stories create something like a "movie" in my mind - I even can imagine the right sounds/noises which would fit exactly to a certain atmosphere.

Hm, hope that is not a case for the doctors...

	22-02-2002 04:29									#5
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I think in terms of naked women

	22-02-2002 05:00									#6
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I sometimes think in terms of naked men when I'm not thinking of something else.

	22-02-2002 05:09									#7
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I'll post more coherently tomorrow when I've sobered up a bit, but I definitely think in English by now. I dream in English as well (which was kind of weird when it first happened after about 6 months in England). Now that i can think in onw foreign language I find that my other foreign languages have improved asw ell, eventhough I hardly ever practise them.

I think in words in general, in pictures when I am thinking about a specific situation.

	22-02-2002 05:54									#8
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An interesting question is; since you don't choose which thoughts that will enter your mind yourself - who the hell does?

Thinking is like playing a tape and we're the taperecorders, IMO.

	22-02-2002 05:56									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Juggernaut An interesting question is; since you don't choose the endless streams of thoughts entering your mind yourself - who the hell does?

Your subconscious mind.

	22-02-2002 05:57									#10
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I think it is a matter of education. I used to read a lot of books, so as a result I used to think excusively in the English language, but that has changed a little. After learning a lot of math I can think to myself in terms of math; seeing the equations themselves and the language of math. Sometimes if I see a lot of movies or play a lot of computer games my thoughts are more purely visual.

A similar thing sometimes happens with music or foreign languages; my thoughts are best expressed in a verbal but non-english format.

"Freude schöner Götterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
...."

Basically the mode of your thoughts will reflect the data that you take in. No surprise there.

	22-02-2002 06:01									#11
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hmm. well let me analize this.

When I read english, I think in terms of images. Whether it be a description of a historical figure, or a fictional book. I try to picture it in my mind.

One problem I have with foreign languages (I'm only familiar with one) is when I read that I tend to convert them to English words. And in turn I have to convert that into images. This slows me up. Hence why I'm not very good at speaking spanish to other spanish speaking people. It's much easier to read it- although I do that slow as well. I would like to be able to convert Spanish words directly into images. Part of the problem I blame on the U.S. school system . This would have been much easier if I took Spanish in elementary school. But I started learning in high school.

	22-02-2002 06:19									#12
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Don't know but I was always getting pissed at those old fart full of themselves linguistic academic dinosaur professor who kept claiming that "if you can't say it, you can't feel it and you can't think it". Although I never had any problems with (Greek) words and vocabulary and I egotistically take pride at what I think of as great personal eloquence(gotta think you have something ), they always got on my nerves these paleolithic academic remains. So let's say a simple farmer who only had basic education and never got around to reading Aristotle's Rhetorics can't feel the joy of his daughter getting married for example simply because he can't "express" it with more than 100 words? bull and of course what about a fully distored G-string or dancing or singing, or painting, sculpture etc?[/minor threadjack]

Reminds me of when I got rejected from a medical school because I pointed out a crucial flaw in one of my interviewer's theories on thought processes. Though I did nod politely at his poor defense. Stupid state schools.

Yes, I'm getting meaner.

	22-02-2002 06:22									#13
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I think in words. If I'm running an idea through my head (pros and cons) I run it through like a discussion.

	22-02-2002 06:25									#14
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Ok, I have my serious answer now that I'm not thinking of naked men.

This semester, I am taking an Argumentation and Debate course. Next week, we will be discussing language from our textbook. The definition I have available is the following:

language: systematic coordination of grammar and vocabulary used to convey meaning

To elaborate on that definition, I have also read about the nature of language in the textbook:

1) people who share same language share set of cultural assumptions and way of thinking
2) words function on many levels and have capacity to change recipients' minds in different ways
3) language and meaning--words by themselves have no intrinsic meaning and only acquire meaning when people use them to describe their world
4) language and abstraction--langauge serves as a vehicle for conveying meaning between a source and receiver
5) connotations and denotations--when constructing an argument, one must deal with meaning of the language as he/she understands it, and how the audience understands it

So from what I have learned so far, I have come to the conclusion in my opinion, that we not only speak in our language, but we also think within the frame of whatever is our native language.

SOURCE: Critical Thinking and Communication--The Use of Reason in Argument, 4th Edition by Edward S. Inch and Barbara Warnick

	22-02-2002 07:09									#15
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun 1) people who share same language share set of cultural assumptions and way of thinking

I don't think this one is true. I honesty believe i have more in common with regard to cultural assumptions with Germans than with Americans. (I do admittedly think in German if I have been speaking it a lot but I grew p with English.)

	22-02-2002 07:55									#16
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It entirely depends upon the system that I'm thinking about.

If it can be represented in terms of a simpler but more precise language, like math, I try to think that way.

But primarily, I think in English.

	22-02-2002 08:19									#17
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For me it depends. If I need to dwell on abstract concepts it's not possible to visualise them, even though I am predominately a visual person.

Most often I don't really find myself consciously thinking, other than when I am doing something heavily mental (such as playing a game of bridge).

	22-02-2002 13:07									#18
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I mostly think in English, and rarely in symbols / images.

	23-02-2002 01:36									#19
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I think in words. If I'm running an idea through my head (pros and cons) I run it through like a discussion.

But what about when you run things through quickly.

Many a time I can see where someone is going with a discussion point before they say it. If I were auto-completing the sentences in my head it would take longer than it actually does.

How about when think about taking a shot at golf, or shooting a hoop in basketball, or any other sport, do you think. "I am going to aim for that spot there". Many people probably say that in their mind, but if thats all the thinking you do then you are not going to hit the target, because you take into consideration and think over loads more factors.

	23-02-2002 01:59									#20
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I don't think.
I can arrive at the correct 'output' to every 'input' without my brain getting in on the act at all.

	23-02-2002 09:12									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin How about when think about taking a shot at golf, or shooting a hoop in basketball, or any other sport, do you think.

That'd involve expertise in some kind of motor skills, which are different from thinking about something.

Conscious thoughts usually enter the picture during preparation and reflection. The rest of the time your subconscious mind just takes over. You don't think how you will write an alphabet when you write it. You may think about how to write it before you do it, or when you study what you wrote to improve your handwriting.

Exceptions occur when you are learning some kind of motor skills. That's why when an infant starts learning how to write he writes slowly.

	23-02-2002 13:53									#22
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Language is an integral part of any culture. And because cultural values are so prevelant in our modes of thinking, I would think that language is also part of our thinking modes.

	23-02-2002 14:18									#23
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Words, naturally.

For some reason, there are certain things I think in English, even though it's not even my natural language. Weird.

	23-02-2002 14:30									#24
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I would propose that thinking has to be done in words. If you translate the words to images, you are still manipulating the words. A blue sky. What is blue?

Descartes said "I think, therefore i am." He knew he thought because he could doubt. what did he doubt? his senses. Images are based on sense perception and experience. He doubted both of these, so he could not have define thinking as anything other than a cognative activity expressed with words...

	23-02-2002 14:57									#25
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I think in English, and I blame you all for that.

	23-02-2002 17:09									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That'd involve expertise in some kind of motor skills, which are different from thinking about something.

You'd have to calculate things though. When someone throws something towards you, your brain automatically calculates a parabolic curve trajectory to estimate where to catch it. You in effect think where to catch it - consciously or subconciously. Whether you can or not is down to motor skills.

quote: If you translate the words to images, you are still manipulating the words. A blue sky. What is blue?

So a person who never learns any languages can not imagine a blue sky, green field, etc.. in their mind? Or even express their though of a blue sky and green field by taking a blue and green crayon and drawing them.

IMHO language is not a prerequisite to thought and expression.

	23-02-2002 17:53									#27
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did you know that we , human beings, do not take conscious decisions? all decisions are made on an unconscious level , while the efect of 'free will' , and 'dicision making' is only a side effect , something we feel is happening while it's not . there was an experiment that proved that.

Do you understand the meaning of this ?!

	23-02-2002 18:23									#28
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quote: there was an experiment that proved that.

I'd be interested in hearing about this experiment.

	23-02-2002 18:39									#29
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I was also ****ing astonished when I heard that .

It involved a simple desicion making , and cortex activity measurment , IIRC.

If you're really interested , and you end up finding some material about , please let me know.

all being said, the experiment is considered to be rather controversial (obviously) , despite being made by an acknowledge specialist in this field.

( I know details I say look merky , but It was on a TV show on the science channel , quite a while ago...... )

	23-02-2002 19:24									#30
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quote: did you know that we , human beings, do not take conscious decisions? all decisions are made on an unconscious level , while the efect of 'free will' , and 'dicision making' is only a side effect , something we feel is happening while it's not . there was an experiment that proved that.

Exactly, a living being always acts according to one's preferences, preferences are gained through genes and environment, thus, no free will.

On the same note, there are no such things as "luck", or "chance", those are just substitutes for non-sufficent information.