23-02-2002 11:44									#61
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Mr. Fun:

quote: I already stated before that a minority of blacks benefitted from the slave trade and from slavery itself.

Actually most of the Blacks who remained in Africa benefitted from slavery. As some Blacks were carried off to slavery, the ones who stayed behind had better land and more animals and tools to work with, increasing their productivity and income. A similar effect was seen in Europe after the Black Death - those who survived were much better off economically. The real beneficairies here were the slave traders, who gained a valuable productive asset - slaves - that they could sell.

Once in the New World, the primary beneficiaries of slavery were not necessarily the slave owners. The reason is that they had to buy the slaves for an amount roughly equal to the value of the slave labor they expected to get out of them. The real beneficiaries in the New World were the original land owners who sold otherwise unproductive land at a price which reflected what it could produce using slave labor.

You can find much of this in a book entitled Time on the Cross by North and Thomas

	23-02-2002 13:36									#62
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Oh right -- look how well the majority of the starving, ill Africans are living now because of European colonialism and the slave trade.

And besides, for many white people, it's hard for them to overcome their bias in realizing how past slavery can have serious consequences for the present generation of descendants of slaves. A lot of white people are blinded by that bias, simply because their ancestors have not been enslaved in the modern world of the 18th and 19th century.

It's easy for many biased white people to simply say that slavery reparations is bullshit when they have not suffered from the consequences of slavery. I'm white, but I have seemed to overcome that particular bias.

	23-02-2002 13:49									#63
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quote: Basically, slavery prevented blacks from accumulating the same kind of wealth and assets that whites have been able to accumulate through anscestors and descendants.

ummm...I would venture to say that the blacks that were slaves in america, who wouldn't be here without their slavery ancestory, are doing a hell of a lot better than their distant relatives in africa.

	23-02-2002 13:59									#64
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Sigh--why the strawman argument about the IF African-Americans were still stuck in Africa??

The point is this -- in United States (NOT Africa), citizens are entitled to an equal opportunity to improve their lives. Blacks have not had that equal opportunity from colonial times, and with only some exceptions, blacks today, do not have equal opportunities.

	23-02-2002 14:13									#65
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MrFun, if you were as intelligent as you claimed, you would realize that you cannot isolate a situation with a great deal of relavent history. America wasn't just a piece of land that God designated as land of the free. A lot of people had to do a lot of hard work to make it what it is. your statement is either one of ignorance or lack of careful reflection.

	23-02-2002 14:17									#66
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quote: blacks today, do not have equal opportunities.

you're right, they have more opportunities. The NAACP and many other black organizations make sure that Blacks have BLACK specific scholarships, grants, etc. Can you imagine what would happen if such a group did the same for whites and whites only?

I wish nothing more than people would ignore the color of people's skin, and take them for who they are. But SOME black people refuse to let this happen. Some white people do the same. I am not pointing fingers. I just think it is silly that people claim to want one thing, and then act along quite different lines...

	23-02-2002 21:15									#67
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Since you expected people to comment on your article MR. Fun, I expect you to comment on mine.

	23-02-2002 22:23									#68
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Mr. Fun:

quote: Oh right -- look how well the majority of the starving, ill Africans are living now because of European colonialism and the slave trade.

The discussion is about the slave trade, not European colonialism. You either did not read the post or are trying to duck the issue. Are you claiming that all, or even many, of Africa's current problems are due to the slave trade? What about parts of Africa which have problems but did not have any substantial slave trade?

	23-02-2002 23:08									#69
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun And here are a few counter-points to the article posted. 1) I already stated before that a minority of blacks benefitted from the slave trade and from slavery itself. That does not mean that the present generation of blacks do not deserve reparations. 2) Blacks played a prominent role in the abolitionist movement: Frederick Douglas, Harriet Tubman, were only two exmaples of black leadership. *Plus, the underground railroad required the courage from the many blacks who chose to run away from plantations. *Runaway black slaves forced the issue of slavery onto whites on both sides of the argument over slavery. *And the successful revolt and independent black republic of Haiti in the early 19th century. Black slaves revolted from French rule, and abolished slavery. *Black soldiers also fought in the Civil War to help preserve the Union, and to help liberate slaves from southern plantations. Blacks were not helpless people completely subjected to the whims of white people. Hundreds of thousands of blacks took action in whatever way they thought was feasible.

DinoDoc, those were the previous statements I have already posted before, in response to your article. The author seems to be ignorant of African-American history.

And as for parts of Africa that did not suffer from the effects of the slave trade but still have similiar problems of poverty, famine, and epedemics?? Parts of the world can have similiar problems without coming from the same sources.
I should have stated that the parts of Africa that did suffer from the slave trade partially resulted in the problems they have today.

And Kaak -- whites do not need the same programs as minority groups do, because whites have always politically, socially, and economically dominated the United States. A dominant majority group does not need the equivalent of NAACP and so forth. Without such programs, blacks would be suffering even worse today.

I still stay with my claim that the present generation of blacks are in their current economic situation due to the enslavement of their ancestral generations. And because of that, slavery reparations is a feasible situation. But biased whites will not hear any of it.

	24-02-2002 02:41									#70
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun DinoDoc, those were the previous statements I have already posted before, in response to your article.

That still doesn't answer most of the points brought forth, especially points One, Two, Four, Five, & Eight - Ten.

	24-02-2002 07:06									#71
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I'm not even sure where to begin to repudiate the points of an author who appears to be ignorant of African-American history.

	24-02-2002 07:09									#72
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I'm not even sure where to begin to repudiate the points of an author who appears to be ignorant of African-American history.

You might want to actually try looking at the article. Or if you can not get past your prejudices about the article, for the sake of academic honesty on you part just read points 8 & 10. I especially like point 8.

	24-02-2002 07:39									#73
	Re: This should be an adequate response to Mr Fun's article Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Ten Reasons Why Reparations for Blacks is a Bad Idea for Blacks - and Racist Too Seven The Reparations Claim Is One More Attempt To Turn African-Americans Into Victims. It Sends A Damaging Message To The African-American Community. The renewed sense of grievance -- which is what the claim for reparations will inevitably create -- is neither a constructive nor a helpful message for black leaders to be sending to their communities and to others. To focus the social passions of African-Americans on what some Americans may have done to their ancestors fifty or a hundred and fifty years ago is to burden them with a crippling sense of victim-hood. How are the millions of refugees from tyranny and genocide who are now living in America going to receive these claims, moreover, except as demands for special treatment, an extravagant new handout that is only necessary because some blacks can't seem to locate the ladder of opportunity within reach of others -- many less privileged than themselves? Eight Reparations To African Americans Have Already Been Paid Since the passage of the Civil Rights Acts and the advent of the Great Society in 1965, trillions of dollars in transfer payments have been made to African-Americans in the form of welfare benefits and racial preferences (in contracts, job placements and educational admissions) - all under the rationale of redressing historic racial grievances. It is said that reparations are necessary to achieve a healing between African-Americans and other Americans. If trillion dollar restitutions and a wholesale rewriting of American law (in order to accommodate racial preferences) for African-Americans is not enough to achieve a "healing," what will? Thus concludes the cut and paste war.

Point Number Seven Counter-Point

Has there been psychological evidence to indicate that Jews have suffered from receiving reparations from the Holocaust? Has there been psychological evidence that Japanese-Americans have suffered from receiving reparations from having their property and businesses stolen?
In other words -- where is the author's psychological research or evidence?

Point Number Eight Counter-Point

There have been sociologists and economists who argued that welfare does not help people climb out of poverty into the middle class. Rather, it merely helps welfare receipients maintain a low quality of life without completely starving. These same welfare programs are available to everyone who qualifies regardless of race or ethnicity. So welfare programs are not a form of failed restitutions.

	24-02-2002 08:41									#74
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"As some Blacks were carried off to slavery, the ones who stayed behind had better land and more animals and tools to work with, increasing their productivity and income."
Not really, the dislocation of the slave raids and the rapid rise and decline of coast states based on the slave trade countered any benefits from lower population.
Also the fact that Europeans tended to take mostly male slaves from the west coast and the Arabs mostly female slaves from the west coast resulted in quite a bit of wierdness gender-relations rise both the change of the population ratios between the sexes when slavery started an when it ended (read a pretty in-depth article on this a year ago, could try to dig it up if anyone wants specifics).

re: DinoDoc's post. Points 3-5 are valid and are enough to win the debate right there. Its completely ridiculous for someone like me who not only had nothing to do with slavery but had no ancestors at all in America before the Civil War to pay reparations for something neither me not my ancestors had any part in to people who were never slaves. Don't really see how anyone can rationally argue against that.

1-2 are flawed since since the reparations really are only meant to target the American portion of slavery and its pretty clear that the white planter aristocracy was far and away the greatest beneficiary of slavery and their slaves the greatest victims.

for 6 the American's race relations have extremally strong roots in the slave system, as should be fairly obvious...

7 is just junk armchair psychology.

8's pretty much irrelevant since those programs did not address this specific issue

9's fairly ridiculous. Its like saying that a shooting victim should be grateful should be grateful because the person who shot him was kind enough to take the bulletts out.

As for ten, last time I checked us leftists weren't trying to destroy america...

	24-02-2002 09:00									#75
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Zhu -- I would not advocate individual wealthy people being sued for reparations. I would advocate that European, North American, and Middle Eastern governments set up reparation payments from their budgets.

	24-02-2002 09:12									#76
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I found an interesting article of an argument in support for slavery reparations. Title: The Legal Basis of the Claim for Slavery Reparations Author: Anthony Gifford Source: Human Rights: Journal of the Section of Individual Rights & Responsibilities, Sping 2000, Vol. 27 Issue 2 . PROPOSITION ONE "The enslavement of Africans was a crime against humanity. OMMISSION Historians can show without difficulty how the invasion of African territories, the mass capture of Africans, the horrors of the middle passage, the chattelization of Africans in the Americas, and the extermination of the language and culture of the transported peoples constituted a continuing crime against humanity."

A crime which (as defined) ended in the United States in 1865 - 137 years ago. There are neither living perpetrators, nor living victims,

quote: PROPOSITION TWO "International law recognizes that those who commit crimes against humanity must make reparation. The right to reparation is well recognized by international law. It was defined by the Permanent Court of International Justice in 1928.

The Constitution of the United States forbids both ex post facto laws and bills of attainder and corruption of blood. No 1928 finding by any court can retroactively create a basis for action stemming from acts which ended 63 years earlier, and no heirs may be held liable for criminal acts of their ancestors.

quote: OMMISSION *In 1952, the Federal Republic of Germany reached an agreement with Israel for the payment of $222 million, following a claim by Jews who had fled from Nazi-controlled countries. OMMISSION *Japan has made reparations payments to South Korea for acts committed during the invasion and occupation of Korea by Japan in World War II. *The UN Security Council passed a resolution binding in international law, requiring Iraq to pay reparations for its invasion of Kuwait. *In 1988, the United States government passed the Civil Liberties Act, in order to make restitution to Japanese Americans with respect to losses resulting from their intermment and ill-treatment at the hands of U.S. authorities during World War II. OMMISSION

In each case, damages were paid for acts after the 1928 finding of law, and to, or for the benefit of, survivors of those acts.

quote: *In November 1995, Queen Elizabeth personally presided over the signing of the Waikato Raupatu Claims Settlement Bill, giving reparation for the seizure of Maori land by British colonists in 1863. OMMISSION

Settlement of a real property claim is immaterial, and is also a question (as in Native American cases) of the treaty status of the parties to the claim.

quote: PROPOSITION THREE "There is no legal barrier preventing the claim for reparations. The New Zealand case is an example of a claim by the descendants of the original victims; they suffer from the loss of their anscestral land and dislocation of their social fabric. OMMISSION

This has already been rebutted - the Constitution of the United States provides an absolute bar. The collective property claims of native groups are an entirely distinct issue, hinging on treaty rights and other legal issues.

quote: PROPOSITION FOUR "The claim would be brought on behalf of all Africans, in Africa and in the diaspora, through an appropriate representative body. Who would be the paintiffs in a claim for reparations? All Africans on the continent of Africa and in the diaspora who suffer the consequences of the crime of mass kidnap and enslavement have an interest in it. (OMMISSION) It is true that a minority of Africans collaborated with the slave trade and prospered as a result; but that should not undermine the overall truth that the rape of Africa was the responsibility of the European nations that established and promoted the trade.

Immaterial to the question of whether, and where, jurisdiction exists to hear such a claim. The issue of the claim of African nations and their people for damages as a result of European colonialism is also distinct from the claims of modern American blacks in relation to the practice of slavery in the United States.

quote: This is only part of the long article, with various sections ommitted, as I saw fit. To read the complete arguments, and to give the author a more fair interpretation, one should locate the complete copy. If there are some questions that could be answered by the ommissions, I will refer to my copy and try to answer them if possible.

A discussion of the possible mechanics for such a claim has no relevance to the underlying merits of such a claim.

You have played debate games, but you have never yet stated clearly and unequivocally WHY and HOW American blacks have some "entitlement" to compensation for an act legal at the time, perpetrated against their sixth and seventh generation ancestors - assuming that they are in fact descendants of slaves held in the United States.

	24-02-2002 09:16									#77
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I have made my attempt, Michael with that article with which you presented some good counter-arguments.

I will have to go back and find some more material to state my claims of which I already made here.

	24-02-2002 09:22									#78
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Shouldn't throw strawmen.

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Point Number Seven Counter-Point Has there been psychological evidence to indicate that Jews have suffered from receiving reparations from the Holocaust?

Not all Jews have been given "reparations" - or even a claim they were "entitled" to reparations. In fact, it is a deliberate distortion of the issue to refer to reparations for holocaust victims in the same vein as slavery.

Specifically, Jews were compensated for their own property and bank accounts seized, their own forced employment as slave labor, etc. You do not have a situation where someone in the year 2100 says "I'm a Jew, and one of my ancestors was probably killed in the holocaust, so I'm entitled to money"

quote: Has there been psychological evidence that Japanese-Americans have suffered from receiving reparations from having their property and businesses stolen?

The reparations in this case were a fixed cash settlement in a class action, payable only to those individuals who were interned. No descendents were paid, nor was an entire race or class, on the basis of their race or class affiliation. Only specific individuals who could prove they personally were interred were eligible to participate in the class settlement. Again, a totally different, and incomparable situation.

You having your property seized is a world of difference from the notion that you ought to have money because you can't succeed because people weren't nice to your great-great-great-great-granddaddy.

quote: In other words -- where is the author's psychological research or evidence?

In other words, where is yours? You cite "counter-examples" which are irrelevant.

	24-02-2002 09:29									#79
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My examples were not irrelevant. I never said that all Jews got reparations either -- I said Jews. I should have said a number of Jews.

The counter-examples I provided are relevant, because I would like to know if there is any psychological evidence of these people suffering from the issues of reparations in which those minority groups were involved. That is what I ask for, since the author claims blacks would suffer psychologically from the reparations issues.

	24-02-2002 09:37									#80
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No - they are not relevant.

If I sue you for damages for the unlawful destruction of my property, that can not be used as a generalized basis, one way or another, for discussing the psychological condition of the white race in the United States six generations from now.

"These people suffering" in one case, means specific individuals who had specific wrongs done to them individually in their own lifetimes - in the absurd attempt to extend that, you are now talking about every member of a race based on wrongs done to some of their ancestors well over 100 years ago.

The two are not comparable.

Whether the "psycholigical" argument is valid is meaningless, because you have yet to clear the hurdle of showing there is a legally valid claim by any of these people, against anyone or anything.

And the "I wouldn't have wealthy individuals pay" argument is more bullshit - where do you think "governments" get the money from their "budgets?" Not only from the wealthy, but from every taxpayer.

	24-02-2002 09:45									#81
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I am 100% against any Slavery Reparations. The past is the past. I did not enslave anyone, nor are there any living US slaves. None of my ancestors were slave owners save for my great-great-great grandfather who bought slaves then gave them their freedom and offered them work on his farm for pay, food, and a home of their own. Furthermore, many of the black people who were slaves more than a century ago were sold as captives by other african tribes. Beyond that, does this mean I can sue England for my ancestors being indentured servants? It is attitudes like Al Sharpton's and the abomination of Louis "Traitor to the US" Farakahn (if I did not spell his name right - oh well) that keeps racial issues alive as a means of segregation in the USA.

	24-02-2002 09:47									#82
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MrFun - slave reparations are immoral. You're not only forcing people who never had anything to do with slavery to pay others who had only a tangential connection to slavery, you're forcing people who had ancestors die in a war resulting in the "freedom" of those slaves to pay the other benefactors of that war - the descendants of slaves.

Imagine telling American soldiers who fought WWII their children must now provide "reparations" to the children of people victimized by the Nazis.

	24-02-2002 09:50									#83
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quote: None of my ancestors were slave owners save for my great-great-great grandfather who bought slaves then gave them their freedom and offered them work on his farm for pay, food, and a home of their own.

Hmm...maybe whites should get "reparations" from blacks for what your ancestor did.

	24-02-2002 09:51									#84
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The Constitution of the United States forbids both ex post facto laws and bills of attainder and corruption of blood. No 1928 finding by any court can retroactively create a basis for action stemming from acts which ended 63 years earlier, and no heirs may be held liable for criminal acts of their ancestors. (Michael's partial quote)

What source did you go to for this information? Are the words, "ex post facto laws", "bills of attainder" and "corruption of blood" in the Constitution itself??

I need to read more about those specific laws, and then find material where there are arguments to explain how slavery reparations can be legal under these laws.

	24-02-2002 09:57									#85
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quote: What source did you go to for this information? Are the words, "ex post facto laws", "bills of attainder" and "corruption of blood" in the Constitution itself??

I know the first two terms are in the Constitution, but I don't think the third is. Reparations are unconstitutional since they would constitute "ex post facto" legislation - a law after the fact to punish someone for legal conduct committed before the law's passage. But since when have most Americans paid much attention to the Constitution?

	24-02-2002 10:04									#86
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What article(s) are those legal terms or words under??

	24-02-2002 10:22									#87
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art 1 sect 9

	24-02-2002 10:47									#88
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Article 1 Section 9

Clause 1: The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

Clause 2: The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

Clause 3: No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

Clause 4: No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken. (See Note 7)

Clause 5: No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

Clause 6: No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

Clause 7: No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

Clause 8: No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

---

See bolded part.

	24-02-2002 10:55									#89
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Thank you for your help on this you guys. I have copied the text Imran posted, and transferred it to a new word processor document so I can save it, and refer to this later.

As Socrates once stated, "wisdom begins when a man finds out that he does not know what he thinks he knows."

	24-02-2002 11:04									#90
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This whole reparations for slavery idea is complete absurdity! And IMO, ANYONE who would supprot such a pursuit is a fool! I never owned a slave. None of my ancestors ever owned slaves. No one alive today ever was a slave. Expecting the American public to pay for something that we never had anything to do with is the ultimate in stupidity. But, just consider the source!