24-02-2002 11:22									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Bizzo This whole reparations for slavery idea is complete absurdity! And IMO, ANYONE who would supprot such a pursuit is a fool! I never owned a slave. None of my ancestors ever owned slaves. No one alive today ever was a slave. Expecting the American public to pay for something that we never had anything to do with is the ultimate in stupidity. But, just consider the source!

words in Bizzo's "argument" that are emotional and connotative:
1)absurdity
2)fool
3)stupidity

You made a claim without attempting to reinforce it with evidence. I myself am trying to overcome using fallacies in argumentation.

	24-02-2002 11:45									#92
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*Bizzo says with heavy sarcasm..."Excuse me counselor!!!"*


Well Mr Fun... Since you want to split hairs, I saw an article on 60 minutes last year on the subject. Um...Yeah! I would consider that to be a fact. And BTW, I said in my origional post (if you'd comprehended what you'd read correctly) that those views were my opinion . Hence the grouping of the letters "IMO". Better known as "In My Opinion". And the last time that I checked, while opinoins are better when backed by facts, facts aren't a requisite in forming an opinion. No "fallacies" in my "argumentation".

	24-02-2002 11:57									#93
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Corruption of blood is mentioned in Article III, Section 3, in connection with "Attainder of Treason" which was the most common basis for corruption of blood in English legal practice.

It refers to the English laws (now long since abolished) relating to Attainder, in which descendants of the attainted person could not inherit property or other heritable rights, retain those that they had, or pass on property or heritable rights, because they were themselves attainted by acts of their ancestors.

It doesn't apply to property claims, for example, where one party "inherits" property stolen from another - because there was never title to the property, to allow it to be passed on.

	24-02-2002 12:08									#94
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Thanks again Michael.

	24-02-2002 12:32									#95
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you're welcome.

	24-02-2002 14:21									#96
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From a strictly legal viewpoint, the reparation claims are pretty pointless. While a Tort case could be pursued to establish the fact that "slavery is wrong" (which we already know), I think it would be incredibly difficult for any modern-day black citizen to prove they qualify for damages in the strict sense. They'd get no more than peppercorn damages- "We're very sorry. Here's your 5 cents."

If you start looking at punitive damages (which seems to be the case here) it stumbles on the fact that no living individual has committed the act requiring punitive action, and that corporate entities are so remote from those times that it would be ludicrous to pursue. Which members of the Chase Manhattan board require the punishment of punitive damages?

Finally, from a purely pragmatic point of view, how can such a divisive act benefit race relations? Ultimately the bill will be footed by ordinary citizens who already agree that slavery has no place in a civilised world, so why should they be punished? There are far better ways of addressing racial issues than this.

	24-02-2002 21:15									#97
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Zhu -- I would not advocate individual wealthy people being sued for reparations. I would advocate that European, North American, and Middle Eastern governments set up reparation payments from their budgets.

Which is different how? People like me who haven't had a single ancestor who's only involvement with slavery was being serfs in Russia would end up paying. The only money I'd be willing to contribute to this would be a reparations check from Russia for the enslavement of my ancestors.

	24-02-2002 21:56									#98
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Zhu -- I would not advocate individual wealthy people being sued for reparations. I would advocate that European, North American, and Middle Eastern governments set up reparation payments from their budgets.

Where do these governments get their money from? Taxes.

Who pays the taxes? Everyone.

You are saying that my tax money should go towards reparations for slavery - something neither me nor my ancestors had anything to do with. Where is the justice in that?

	24-02-2002 23:11									#99
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Let me clarify--instead of allowing descendants of black slaves in the United States to sue wealthy individuals who are descendants of plantation owners, they would be allowed to sue the U.S. government.

Yes, that means that the money the government would pay through reparations would come from taxes. I do not advocate, however, direct suing descendants of wealthy individuals who were plantation owners, or descendants of slave trade merchants.

	24-02-2002 23:13									#100
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Compensatory damages or punitive damages?

	24-02-2002 23:16									#101
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Yes, that means that the money the government would pay through reparations would come from taxes.

Please explain how this is "fair"
Your argument is basically... let's punish everybody, not the people responsible (who are all dead anyway)

	24-02-2002 23:21									#102
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Let me clarify--instead of allowing descendants of black slaves in the United States to sue wealthy individuals who are descendants of plantation owners, they would be allowed to sue the U.S. government. Yes, that means that the money the government would pay through reparations would come from taxes. I do not advocate, however, direct suing descendants of wealthy individuals who were plantation owners, or descendants of slave trade merchants.

So in other words, the "government" can simply increase taxes on everyone, or cut services, or whatever, so that every citizen has their money confiscated (whether they can afford it or not, and regardless of their lack of culpability) to go as a general handout to every member of the black race (what about people of "mixed" ancestry ) who claims they had an ancestor who'd been a slave in the US.

Minimum wage workers at Walmart with families to feed can give money to Johnnie Cochrane, Mike Tyson, O J Simpson, and millions of professional and middle class blacks, because, after all, they too are all victims of an institution which was ended 137 years ago. What amazes me is how you are so wilfully blind to the utter absurdity and injustice of the whole proposition.

	25-02-2002 00:45									#103
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quote: As some Blacks were carried off to slavery, the ones who stayed behind had better land and more animals and tools to work with, increasing their productivity and income. A similar effect was seen in Europe after the Black Death - those who survived were much better off economically.

But slavers targetted health individuals, rather than epidemics, which had a disproportionate effect on the elderly and weak (with a few exceptions, such as the influenza epidemic of 1918).

So I don't think slavery would beneficially affect the African economies in the long-term.

	25-02-2002 01:33									#104
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The government does not necessarily have to increase taxes. It could refinance its budget. For instance, decreasing financing for military defense, or in other areas where a reasonable deduction is feasible.

Now of course, some of you will exaggerate this point that I have made and claim that I'm arguing we should completely eliminate financing in military defense to pay for slavery reparations through the government. Try not to exaggerate my claims or statements.

	25-02-2002 01:49									#105
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dont just throw money around... seek poor urban enterpreneurs and give them loans to start up businesses in the poor neighbourhoods to give jobs and vitalize the economy there. Once capital starts flowing around the ghettoes they'll naturally rise up.

As for dealing with the more difficult social porblems, a grass roots movement would need to be undertaken. We need less deadbeat fathers, less lost youths, less gangs... It might seem hard now but people must try to fight against these wrongs and keep their head up. A better economy, however, would eliminate these problems quickly though no doubt.

And I'd just like to add that organizations such as the Freedman's Bureau which is generally thought of as the organization designed to make reparations and help blacks also was charged with aiding poor whites. Don't narrow your ideas, Mr.Fun, to just blacks, some of whom aint even poor. Everyone needs some help.


thanks

	25-02-2002 01:57									#106
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quote: The government does not necessarily have to increase taxes. It could refinance its budget. For instance, decreasing financing for military defense, or in other areas where a reasonable deduction is feasible.

You're missing the point, entirely. The fact that the reparations come from taxes means that people whose descendents weren't responsible for slavery have to pay reparations themselves.

	25-02-2002 02:07									#107
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Ramo:

Do you think the difference between welfare and reparations is large because of the difference in the cause of each? For practical purposes the two are similiar (though they differ in their cause and selection as to who recieves them) even to the point that with both there is never the thought of making money with this money which would be the solution. Do you oppose reparations but not welfare simply because of the origin and impetus of each?


again... money handed out is no solution to the problems that black americans face in this country.


thanks

	25-02-2002 02:15									#108
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Actually, I also oppose welfare as well.

Things have changed while you were gone. For example, I became an anarcho-syndicalist almost a year ago.

But yes, I think the difference between welfare and reparations is large. One assists certain social classes, and the other assists a broad collection of ethnicities.

	25-02-2002 02:21									#109
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anarcho-syndicalist? never heard of that...

i must be the only one here who has retained his beliefs for the past three years...

	25-02-2002 02:32									#110
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In common US political terms, a libertarian socialist.

	25-02-2002 03:10									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer anarcho-syndicalist? never heard of that... i must be the only one here who has retained his beliefs for the past three years...

That's a pity, given your past beliefs. Given the fact that you were about 14 I'd hoped that you might have grown out of them.

	25-02-2002 04:08									#112
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Jumping on late into the scene: My basis for NOT supporting reparations is the ex post facto and bill of attainder clause in the constitution. It is not fair to bring charges against someone for doing something that was legal. Also, reparations would bankrupt our nation, and also I know the 11th amendment says you can't sue a state gov't, but does it say anywhere you can't sue the federal government? It is very unjust to the multitudes of people not aasociated with slavery who have to pay as well as the "victims" who are so far removed from their ancestors plight that it seems ridiculous, because: then where do you stop?

My final reason is that it is a plot by the Democrats to destroy this nation. They are breeding strife and trying to divide everyone into ethnic groups and stress that, not being united as Americans. They want to instill in Blacks that you have to go after "whitey" to get all you need and are doing nothing but using minorities for their own political agenda.

	25-02-2002 04:51									#113
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Legal nightmare = lawyer heaven

It's just another way for for the legal fraternity to fatten their pockets Giving underpriviledged people education, support and resources is far more efficient than giving them repatriations which are heavily siphoned off to lawyers. If you haven't guessed already, i hate lawyers

	25-02-2002 19:54									#114
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun The government does not necessarily have to increase taxes. It could refinance its budget. For instance, decreasing financing for military defense, or in other areas where a reasonable deduction is feasible. Now of course, some of you will exaggerate this point that I have made and claim that I'm arguing we should completely eliminate financing in military defense to pay for slavery reparations through the government. Try not to exaggerate my claims or statements.

You still havent told us why you think its fair that tax money (i.e - money that comes from everyone) be used to pay reparations to blacks. I only moved to the US 3 years ago from New Zealand. My ancestors settled in NZ 150 years ago from Ireland. Why should my tax money be used for this?

Taxes are paid by black people too BTW, so you are asking them to pay reparations to themselves.

	26-02-2002 08:02									#115
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Still waiting for a reply MrFun...

	26-02-2002 08:58									#116
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I'm sure he will say that the US government will make sure that black people's taxes won't be used... it would make as much sense as his argument to take it out of the military budget.

	26-02-2002 09:04									#117
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Probably.

	26-02-2002 09:28									#118
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I cannot formulate an effective answer at this time, since I need to do more reference or reading for that particular counter-point.

Unless, someone can answer this--did the reparations for Japanese-Americans come from taxes??

	27-02-2002 20:14									#119
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MrFun,
Why are you of the opinion that tax money should be used for slavery reparations? Do you actually have a reason for thinking this or are you just regurgitating something you read? Its seems the latter is true because when we ask you why you think this your response is that you "need to do more research".

So you formed your opinion before you knew the facts. You also formed you opinion without giving it any thought because you cant even answer a simple question about it.

	27-02-2002 21:16									#120
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Im not suprised you havent answered yet MrFun. Your position is indefensible.