23-02-2002 02:58									#31
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I changed my post to incorporate some suggestions. Tell me what you think of them.

Last edited by nationalist on 24-02-2002 at 01:47

	23-02-2002 04:22									#32
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I think it should be possible to have equal culture under communism, just harder: say that existing cultural buildings produce very little, so you have to rebuild them all to get the culture. If this isn't allowed, then there should be an alternative form of victory for a communist country (or more than one, they could win this all together): WORLD REVOLUTION. I don't actually no how this could be implemented, but it could be good.

	23-02-2002 05:30									#33
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus I think it should be possible to have equal culture under communism, just harder: say that existing cultural buildings produce very little, so you have to rebuild them all to get the culture. If this isn't allowed, then there should be an alternative form of victory for a communist country (or more than one, they could win this all together): WORLD REVOLUTION. I don't actually no how this could be implemented, but it could be good.

You can do this now, the buildings I mean. I'm going to create variations of the Cathedral based on government type. Each will have slightly different characteristics than the other govs. So everytime there's a switch of government, it will be necessary to rebuild the primary happinesss building.

	23-02-2002 05:48									#34
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quote: You can do this now, the buildings I mean. I'm going to create variations of the Cathedral based on government type. Each will have slightly different characteristics than the other govs. So everytime there's a switch of government, it will be necessary to rebuild the primary happinesss building.

Well, you could, but with the V.117f patch the Multi-Tool doesn't work any more
Very annoying as I only used it a couple of days before the patch

	23-02-2002 05:54									#35
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Well, you could, but with the V.117f patch the Multi-Tool doesn't work any more Very annoying as I only used it a couple of days before the patch

Mine works just fine, it's version .83. I know he had some problems at first, mainly with the Save Game Editor, but I'm sure he has those problems fixed by now.

	23-02-2002 06:47									#36
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Willem, I think the word you might be looking for is "Totalitarianism," rather than Dictatorship. This would include both Stalinist and Nazi varieties, and would describe a state relying on terror to suppress dissent.

Happiness would thus not be much of an issue...not that there wouldn't be any, just that nobody would be crazy enough to admit to it.

	23-02-2002 07:01									#37
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Willem, I think the word you might be looking for is "Totalitarianism," rather than Dictatorship. This would include both Stalinist and Nazi varieties, and would describe a state relying on terror to suppress dissent. Happiness would thus not be much of an issue...not that there wouldn't be any, just that nobody would be crazy enough to admit to it.

Well yes, you're probably right, but in my game I'm using the Stalinist model as the basis of my Communism, so Totalitarianism kind of muddles things up for me. However that would be a better term for the concept I have in mind for that type of government. Besides, Dictatorship is easier to pronounce.

	23-02-2002 10:38									#38
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Communism is the greatest form of government. It is all people working together for a common goal. There is no unhappiness. The state makes sure the unhappy are "dealt with."

It's bad if you are a citizen, great if you are the leader!

Fascism is like being a popular dictator. You should be able to draft without a severe penalty, but suffer from having foreign people in cities. Also, you would need to be at war often since you need a devil if you want to be the angel.

Propaganda would be important in Fascism, because you are dead if the people ever lose their faith in you. It wouldn't be too hard to make a Fascist government type, but it would need a few special abilities to really set it apart from the others.

	23-02-2002 11:59									#39
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quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin Communism is the greatest form of government. It is all people working together for a common goal. There is no unhappiness. The state makes sure the unhappy are "dealt with." It's bad if you are a citizen, great if you are the leader!

But that's not the underlying philosophy of Communism. This idea that socialist principles leads to the repression of the individual is just a result of the way the basic concepts have been corrupted by the examples of the Soviet Union, and today with China. It doesn't automatically mean that anyone with oppposing views gets whisked away to a concentration camp, that's just the way that our only real world examples have evolved. It boils down to the expression, "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."

True Socialism, which is the term I prefer, means that all people have a stake in their own society, and the purpose of society is to allow everyone to participate, and recieve the common benefits. This is no different than the underlying principles of Democracy. However, what has happened with Democracy is that in many ways, it has become a form of government "for the rich, and by the rich".

The ordinary people no longer have any say in the process, aside from electing some representative every few years, who may or may not share, or even respect, the views of their constituents. As it far to often turns out, their only goal is to further themselves, rather than the people they represent. It's becoming to resemble more of an Oligarchy than a political philosophy revolving around the people who constitute a society.

	23-02-2002 12:04									#40
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quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin It's bad if you are a citizen, great if you are the leader! Fascism is like being a popular dictator. You should be able to draft without a severe penalty, but suffer from having foreign people in cities. Also, you would need to be at war often since you need a devil if you want to be the angel. Propaganda would be important in Fascism, because you are dead if the people ever lose their faith in you. It wouldn't be too hard to make a Fascist government type, but it would need a few special abilities to really set it apart from the others.

I like this line of thinking...sort a reverse of becoming war weary. Actually, if there is a way to limit cultural assimilation of foreign people into your empire that would great for facism. Maybe increase the time it takes to assimilate them, or maybe they can only be assimilated if troops are present in the city in force....

	23-02-2002 12:17									#41
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quote: Originally posted by sachmo71 I like this line of thinking...sort a reverse of becoming war weary. Actually, if there is a way to limit cultural assimilation of foreign people into your empire that would great for facism. Maybe increase the time it takes to assimilate them, or maybe they can only be assimilated if troops are present in the city in force....

You can. Assimilation chances are found in the Government area of the editor. Here's the default odds:

Anarchy: 1%
Despotism: 1%
Monarchy: 2%
Communism: 4%
Republic: 2%
Democracy: 4%

	23-02-2002 20:23									#42
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I came up with this idea last night over a bottle of whiskey, only to find it was posted while I was out. Different gov should have different types of "temple" and "cathedrals" etc. Under fascism culture buildings like the colleseum should have more culture than usual for example. Under communism, because they are a godless lot, temples should produce very little culture or maybe even negative culture as it goes against marxist ideology, but can be replaced by a "workers collective union" or "Party of the Proleteriat HQ". These would give the standard culture points with the 50% redux. In theory it is possible to build culture upon ideological doctrine. I mean those huge rallies in USSR and China were pretty cultural, even if most people were forced to participate and have "fun".

I like the idea of having gov specific victories, like world revolution for pinko commie bastards. Maybe a "ubermensch" victory for fascist pigs; diplomatic for democratic panzies. I think only the modern govs should have gov specific victories, the other forms being too primitive. This is what I thought up about govs and their sub parts (over a bottle of whiskey)

Democracy: (there could be an uncontrolable "election"
variable making it harder for you to choose
which way to go.)
- Liberal
- Conservative
- Christian

Communism:
- True Socialism
- Totalitarian
- Orwellian

Fascism:
- Latin
- National Socialism
- er...

Monarchy:
- Thoecracy
- Constitutional Monarchy (say almost as good as democracy)
- Dynastic

Republic: (these are the models but I forget the political nonnational names)
- Ancient Greek (Platonic or aristotleonic or whatever)
- French (Napoleonic)
- American (Pre civil war type)

Despotism, being crap and unevolved get nothing. Changing between these should not cause you to fall in anarchy, but have some negative effects, like stalling all culture points for X turns depending on size of empire, and cost money. Except in democracies where they are forced to hold elections every X turns and it only costs cash.

	23-02-2002 20:29									#43
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quote: Originally posted by aahz_capone These would give the standard culture points with the 50% redux. In theory it is possible to build culture upon ideological doctrine. I mean those huge rallies in USSR and China were pretty cultural, even if most people were forced to participate and have "fun".

Sorry, I mean WITHOUT the 50% redux, duh!

	23-02-2002 23:25									#44
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Good ideas there, Capone. Although I must admit I'm slightly confused by the idea of a Christian Democracy. What exactly sets a Christian Democracy apart from a normal Democracy? (The people are Christians! *quick drum beat* But seriously...) And how would a Christian Democracy be implemented?

To others this may seem obvious, so I apologise if I am just being stupid but I would certainly appreciate some clarification if you wouldn't mind.

Cheers

	24-02-2002 00:14									#45
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Yeah, I guess I'd beter explain that. It comes form the political systems of most mainland europe countries. You have the usual parties: liberals, conservatives and labour, but also what is frequently refered to as the Christian democrates. Basically it stems from the age when there was less destinction between the seperation of church and state. You could see it as the least secular of the democracies. These parties are usualy quite conservative, so in hind sight, I think maybe we should keep them out, replace them with Labour/socialists. I mean looking at the Republican party in the US it's very much like the Christian Democratic Apel in Holland and the Tories in Britain. This also makes more sence technically in civ3. Observe:


-Democracies-
Conservatives: Temple and cathedral get 1.5 times culture points.
Liberals: library and university get 1.5
Labour: courthouse and factory get for the first time, some culture points. This makes sence as the courthouse would defend workers rights and promote labour unions.

Under communism factories, police stations and courthouses could get culture, where as temples may even decrease culture. (later replacing temple with Regional Party HQ as mentioned above)

Under fascism there could also be such an arrangement, colleseum being beter for example and Universities maybe not (seeing as universities and students are always the hubs of change and radical political ideas.)

Keeping in mind ofcourse all of Nationalist's ideas on happyness and culture he mentioned above. Very good work the btw.

Can anyone else figure out how this works with Republics and Monarchies, or if there's a third form of fascism? (Does the Far East have a form of Fascism...?)

	24-02-2002 02:12									#46
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quote: Originally posted by aahz_capone Can anyone else figure out how this works with Republics and Monarchies, or if there's a third form of fascism? (Does the Far East have a form of Fascism...?)

Well Myanmar has a military dictatorship and, until recently at least, Indonesia also had one. But those don't exactly count as Fascism. As someone pointed out to me, Totalitarianism would be a much better term for the type of government that you are describing, especially if you are trying to lump the Latin regimes in with the Nazis. Myself, I prefer the term Dictatorship. It's easier to spell.

	24-02-2002 02:24									#47
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What, you mean something like this?

Totalitarianism:
- Latin Fascism
- National Socialism
- East Block Military Dictatorship

The problem with that is that communism also has a form of totalitarianism. Damn, SMAC made it so easy...

	24-02-2002 02:35									#48
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quote: Originally posted by aahz_capone What, you mean something like this? Totalitarianism: - Latin Fascism - National Socialism - East Block Military Dictatorship The problem with that is that communism also has a form of totalitarianism. Damn, SMAC made it so easy...

I know, I ran into the same problem myself, that's why I settled on Dictatorship. I'm basing my model of Communism on the Stalinist regime, so Totalitarianism didn't provide enough seperation between that form and Communism. And Fascism doesn't quite work, since that excludes regimes like the current one in Myanmar. Yet they both function on more or less the same principles, autocratic rule from a central figure.

I want something to replace Despotism in the Modern Era, but there's no clear government form to go by, other than my generalization. Especially when I'm trying to make that fit into the options we have available in the editor. A few more controls and I could differentiate a bit more, but unfortunately, I have to be broad in my definitions.

	24-02-2002 02:47									#49
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Yeah, but even a theocratic monarchy is a dictatorship. I think you can find you replacement despotism/dictatorship within many of the different above mentioned sub-govs

	24-02-2002 03:04									#50
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quote: Originally posted by aahz_capone Yeah, but even a theocratic monarchy is a dictatorship. I think you can find you replacement despotism/dictatorship within many of the different above mentioned sub-govs

Yes I know. I was also thinking of regimes like the Taliban in my definition. Unfortunately, with the tools I have available in the game, it's necessary to have a broad category, rather than a distinct sub group. And Dictatorship to me fits the overall concept the best. Maybe if we get more options in the editor, it will be possible to have variations on a theme, but right now we're somewhat limited. Although the gov specific buildings certainly opens a few more doors.

PS I just noticed that I'm starting to repeat myself so I have nothing further to say about this subject.

	24-02-2002 04:10									#51
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I like these new disinctions between types of governments. I think That it should be

Fascism: Latin, Nazi, Ultra-Nationalism

Ultra-Nationalism would represent the belleigerant acions of the Japanese Empire before and during World War 2. The Japanese government was more popular and nationalistic than monarchy, but it was definately different than the other forms of Fascism. As for the governments of Myanmar and the others you mentioned, I would classify them as Despotism. They are far too corrupt and primative to be referred to as modern government types.

Another idea that I had was that each particular government type could have its own government-specific small wonder.

However, these changes are probably too complicated to be implemented in a Civ 3 patch, but are good ideas for a Civ 4. I think that an addition of a simple "Fascist" form of government to represent the differances that I have previously stated could be more easily accomplished.

	24-02-2002 04:28									#52
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Yadda, yadda, yadda!!

I hear a lot of creative ideas for Fascism that only Firaxis can implement, but hardly any number crunching. Firaxis obviously made a conscious decision not to include fascism, or terrorist actions, or fundamentalism in reworked form, or Hitler as Germany's leader. Instead of philosophical debate over what fascism is and isn't, lets hear some actual numbers.

* If you were to add Fascism to the game through the game, exactly what settings would you make?

and

* Would you create special Fascist buildings? What Civilizations would prefer Fascism?

Lets hear some interpretations please!
Then we can discuss what really matters -- actual game data.

No offense

	24-02-2002 04:51									#53
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MonsterMan,

quote: * If you were to add Fascism to the game through the game, exactly what settings would you make?

Check out my 5th post on the first page on this thread titled government forms. It details what attirbutes I would give to Fascism and how I would adjust the other governments to compensate for Fascism.

quote: * Would you create special Fascist buildings? What Civilizations would prefer Fascism?

If Fascism would be added in and become another form of government, rhen I wouldn't give it any special buildings. Democracy and a Communism don't have special buildings, so why should Fascism? I hadn't thought about which Civs, but probably Germany, Japan, Rome, Zulu, Aztecs, and maybe France

	24-02-2002 05:07									#54
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Here's what I'd do, using only what's available in the editor:

Corruption: Problematic (maybe Nuisance)--unlike Communism's communal corruption, this still gives a highly productive core area... it just means that far-flung conquered territories are gonna take a lot of work to do anything.

Rate cap: 100%. Granted, the Nazis did drive away many of Germany's best minds, but it's not like they didn't do any research. Since the rate cap isn't used for any other governments, I don't see why it should be used for Fascism.

Worker rate: 3. Same as democracy's 50% bonus here.

Draft limit: 3. Higher than Monarchy or Communism.

Military Police: 4. On par with Communism.

Assimilation Rate: 0% (possibly 1% but I like zero). Not a massive history buff, but think this leans more towards Hitler's Nazi policies than Mussolini's Italian Fascism--don't really care if it isn't quite accurate, because it makes an interesting trait for this government, especially when you consider that the current modern governments have the highest assimilation rates.

Resistance modifiers: Cripplingly bad (positive, quite high) modifiers against basically any form of government (except for anarchy).

Hurry method: Forced labor.

War weariness: None, naturally.

Unit support: 1 gold per unit, 2/4/8, same as Monarchy and Communism.

Diplomats and spies: Regular.

Immunities: None.

Propaganda modifiers: I don't know, probably about average (between Monarchy and Republic). Fascist governments usually aren't embraced by the world governments, but then they do tend to have very powerful propaganda machines both for domestic and foreign citizens.



The sum of all this, I think, would be a government with all the war bonuses of Communism but higher production, yet which would have a rough time integrating large conquests effectively. Ideally you'd end up with a peaceful government (Democracy), a short-term war government (Fascism), and a long-term war government (Communism), but I'm not sure how well this would work out using existing modding capabilities. I don't think Fascism would replace Democracy as the best high-production peacetime government, but it could end up that its advantages over communism outweigh its disadvantages...

	24-02-2002 05:35									#55
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nationalist: I meant you when I said creative but impossible ideas. You suggested
Other nations distrust Fascist governments.
which is creative and good, but impossible for anyone else than Firaxis. The same goes for most of your other ideas in that post, in this thread.

So instead of hoping for Firaxis to do something they won't, let's talk about something we can do ourselves that would be an amicable replica of Fascism. I'm attaching my settings for Fascism -- I'm sure it isn't perfect, that's half the reason I look forward to a discussion on numbers

Thanks Random Passerby!
It is a shame we can't be very creative because Hitler germany could be wonderfully emulated by forcing the player to raze conquered cities not belonging to it's culture group. That was Hitler's plan for Russia, and to build new cities in their place, like many Civ players are doing

I don't have a strong feeling about Corruption under fascism. It should probably be high in keeping with Civilizations scale of higher freedom = less corruption. Plus if the player can pop-rush, there isn't such a big need for cash, although research and gold go hand in hand.

"Rate Cap" is a great feature that isn't used. Imagine that, a premade feature in the editor, on a silver platter, for us modders to use. That alone makes it worth having a Gov with a cap. So I'd keep the cap and tweak another setting for status quo. Assuming we're using Hitler germany as the model... a government fond of burning books must have hurt science

I thought fascist diplomats should be not-so-great. Imagine the angry german "Deutschland Deutschland über alles" raising his arm in protest. Hermann Göring defected to Brittain and tried to broker peace, they put him in the slammer for forty years... not a good diplomat.

Enigma is my justification for setting Spies as veterans.

I don't understand the two modifier settings, haven't touched them, I should investigate. Thanks for your post!

Attachment: fascism.jpg
This has been downloaded 39 time(s).

	24-02-2002 08:13									#56
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Monsterman,

Interesting ideas. I especially like the razing any town populated by other nationals. (that is what I usually do anyway). The reason that I was posting those ideas was for an addition by Firaxis in an upcoming patch or something. I know that its unlikely to happen, but I think that the current slate of governments is far too boring and Firaxis should be the one to fix it. The extensive moding that we have to do to add some variety game shows, in my opinion, some shoddyness in production. When I play I like to know that I playing by the same rule as everyone else, but I guess that it is probably the best thing that will happen. I'll fool around with my editor and try to define Fascism in numbers and post it. Maybe the community can create a suitable version of Fascism or maybe, if we're lucky, Firaxis will pay attention to our suggestions and make a new comprehensive patch

	24-02-2002 22:17									#57
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As long as we're taking the Nazi's as our base for fascism (though it break my beating heart ) I quite agree that they suck at diplomacy, not only for the affore mentioned reasons of MonsterMan, but also because Nazi Germany's Minister of Foreign affairs, von Richthoven as I recall, was such a demented PUTTS. I think the history buffs will agree with me here. The guy had NO CLUE what the hell was going on. Even during the Nuremberg trials, half the Nazi's said he was a dork.

Beside that I agree with nationalist that I like to play with the same rules as everyone else, the reason I haven't made 20 new gov models . We just have to hope and pray that what we create, in it's own simple way, will catch FIRAXIS' eye.

WOOHOO!!! I reached Chieftan level!