23-02-2002 01:00									#1
	Starting a game in 1.17f Support Apolyton

Theoretically, when playing a standard map or smaller, you can set science to maximum to check which civs are playing against you. For example, Pottery needs 48 science on standard map. You usually have 3 trade at first if you build on river, so if you set science to maximum you'll have 24 turns for Pottery. What if the number shows 12 turns? That means 12/24=1/2 of the civs now playing have the tech. At turn 1 this means 4 out of 8 civs are expansionist. This will give you some idea (this is the extreme case where you almost know who they are, since there are only 5 expansionist civs). With 3 trade you can detect number of civs having techs with base value 2 or 3; with 4 trade you can detect all starting techs.

It is utterly important to settle near a luxury resource. One luxury means you can pop rush once more without facing the consequence; 3-4 luxuries will make your cities free of any riot. So it's time to revisit the idea of wandering a while before settling the first city.

You need to get out of despotism quickly, so a religious civ is a must. Not only does it save you one tech towards Monarchy, but also it saves you 5 turns of anarchy. As for the other tech towards Monarchy, Warrior Code, you don't need it since you can research Mysticism and Polytheism, and trade with other civs for Warrior Code (even if you can't trade, by the time you discover Poly, Warrior Code will not require many turns to research since there will be many civs who have the tech). This means, a religious civ will become Monarchy in 120 turns on a regular basis. And, after you get Monarchy, other basic techs will be so easy to research that you'll get them quickly. This will be a very good researching strategy. Following the same logic, you'll spend minimum science to research a valuable tech in 40 turns while waiting for other techs to become cheaper. This shall work for latter era as well.

Barbarians no longer go for settlers and workers. This means that you can fortify a military unit on bonus terrain and let the barbs kill themselves against it.

Size 6 strategy still works once you get to Monarchy. But the effect is halved since you need to wait a turn for the city to grow back to size 7(with 5 food surplus), and with several grassland tile irrigated, you cannot mine them to get two shields, so you'll not be able to get 10 shield per turn. However adding back a worker at size 7 to get a settler should still work.

Last edited by Xin Yu on 23-02-2002 at 03:16

	23-02-2002 22:46									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I love the first paragraph. If there was an award for sneaky b*stards at Apolyton I know who I'd vote for.

	23-02-2002 23:18									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks DrSpike.

Tried every mean to grow faster under despotism. Seems the only way is to settler near two cattles/wheats (with one of them on grass) or three cattes/wheats. With irrigation, under the former scenario you have 5 food surplus at size 2; under the latter scenario you have 5 food surplus at size 3. Then you add more citizens until the city yields 5 shields as well. Now you can keep your city at this size and pump out a worker every two turns, with the help of a granary. If you want a settler (similarly any military troops), you can add 3 workers to a nearby size 1 city then rush. This makes expansionist trait more valuable, especially when you play huge maps (less likely to meet other civs early). Expasionists will get you to cattles/wheats earlier, avoid barbs in hut, and build granaries earlier. Which means, you expand faster.

Build your cities on defense bonus terrain since the city square's yield is always the same. It is very important to build road everywhere. Not only can you generate income from road, but also send troops via road to defense bonus terrain before the barbs can hit you.

	24-02-2002 00:01									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I don't fully agree about searching for a place to found your capital for the reasons above. I also wouldn't advocate wandering looking for luxuries either. I just found early whilst making sure I can get a settler in 20 turns (usually Warrior-Warrior-Settler). The second settler would of course head for any cattle/wheat the warriors had discovered to churn more settlers. Of great importance from turn one is palace placement. However it is often hard to tell from turn one. I usually explore a bit then decide whether to keep the palace or "bounce" it to another location.

The research path advocated for religious civs is IMO spot on. It is often worth stopping off in Monarchy for the turns it takes to get republic, and it gives you good trading opportunities. This is reinforced by the fact that the AI sometimes neglects this path.

	24-02-2002 09:57									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This strategy militates against the early archer rush to reduce or eliminate one opponent. What are your preferances as to geography and number of civs?

	25-02-2002 08:01									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Blaupanzer: I'm playing deity, huge map, 8 civs. Research will be really hard but when you meet an AI your map is going to worth a lot. So one of my top priorities is Mapmaking.

	25-02-2002 19:34									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ah Xin Yu, nice to see you're posting here. Now we should probably expect something great.


I think I am mistaken, but I give very low value to maps as soon as the middle age starts. I will agree to map-to-map exchanges, but I'll never pay anything for a map. And, I will also be easily giving my map away.

	25-02-2002 21:17									#8
	Support Apolyton

Solver, the AI uses your maps to locate targets and empty spots. Loose distribution of same can get you a doorstep full of AIs. The map you shared will soon be everyone's. Worth thinking about. Mapmaking, the technology, has a much higher value on archipelago maps of any size and huge, non-pangeia maps.

Xin Yu, Glad to have you on these forums with that laser analytical skill of yours. The huge map limits early contact, answering my earlier question. It also addresses a second question, what do you do about strategic resources? If one goes down the Monarchy track, one gets to the identifying of the resources, horses and iron, after the AI. The spread on a huge, 8-civ map does limit that risk. Do you win fairly regularly? If so, how?

Last edited by Blaupanzer on 25-02-2002 at 21:25

	25-02-2002 21:41									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Blaupanzer: I hardly play any so I don't expect seeing the results in the near future.
Horse is very important (fortunately the tech to detect it is cheap), but iron and others are not. In fact they maybe counter productive since you need to spend more shields to produce those units. The best way to get these units is through upgrading. At one time you connect to the resource then upgrade all your units to the type which requires the resource then you're done. No longer need it, at least for a long time.

	25-02-2002 22:26									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Xin Yu, I believe your analytic eye, but I've observed that, if there are two civs one one continent, one with Horses and/or Iron and the second has nothing, the nothing haver will loose, because Spearmen can hardly hold off Swordsmen, unless in Hills.

By the way, try out the Persians. Their Immortals cut Spearmen so easy and are well worth the cost.

I've had the curse of starting in Plains, too...

	25-02-2002 22:49									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Solver: If the resource is closer to you then you can try to culturally retake it. If it is near the AI then you need some luck to steal it. Sometimes you can put a coastal city near the AI and steal the special resource with a harbor. Otherwise you'll have to seek for overseas resources. Either way it gives mapmaking a high priority.

If you are so unlucky that none of the above works, then you'll have to get mathematics. Build a lot of catapults and use them to soften the legions, then use your archers to get them. It works like a charm.

	26-02-2002 02:50									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I have shared a continent with an AI (the Romans) which had both iron and horses, whereas I (the Egyptians) had none.

My response, since my start location was otherwise quite nice, was to fight it out. I built a bunch of archers and attacked their horse city, which was on the border. This taken, I started pumping out war chariots and crushed them. Luckily, they had not yet connected their iron, and I don't recall seeing a legion. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been quite so easy. The only tough part was the one city they had that was surrounded by mountains and coast. No road = no war chariot through mountain. I actually sent a spearman and 5 slaves up there and built the darn road so I could take it.

-Arrian

	02-03-2002 16:43									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I agree that having a luxury near your 1st city is very important... but even more so is a river -without a river your early development is stifled by a factor of 3 to 4.

The sad part of this is that I sometimes tend to abandon games early, just by being too dissatisfied with my starting position -as another poster said, wandering around isn't an option; you need the first turn of city production!

I don't think Religious + rush to Monarchy is so important though. I tend to beeline for Republic instead, and i've found this government is much better for builder's purposes. I've also found war to be still possible under this government form.

	02-03-2002 19:33									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It's not the point that monarchy is good - it's not, albeit relatively better than it was in 1.16f. The point is that as a religious civ you start with CB, and therefore can research the 2nd and 3rd level techs right off, giving you valuable techs to trade. This is good general advice for all civs, but IMO even more so for religious civs since the AI doesn't seem to research this path as vigourously.

I also would tend to go despotism-republic, as you suggest.