21-12-2000 01:39									#1
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I was thinking of the social impact that big tech discoveries have had. For example, the industrial revolution led to a large labor class which at first was grossly underpaid and mistreated, leading to social unrest and socialist movements. The discovery that the earth was not at the center of the universe had a profound social impact as well.
I was wondering how civ3 could implement the social impact of some techs. I think the simplest way would just to add special effects to an advance. For example, "industrialization" could increase unhappiness empire wide until the discovery of "labor union".

What do you think? It seems to me that this is important because it makes techs more interesting and adds authenticity.

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	21-12-2000 02:45									#3
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Well the careful placing of improvements on the tech tree could make this uneccessary. If we think about the industrial revolution, it also brought the railway, improved food routes to towns and hence larger population (grain silo in CtP2). This leads to overcrowding and unhappiness.

	21-12-2000 05:30									#4
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I think its a mixed idea, on one hand, its great, cause its realistic. on the other hand, its not, cause like Evil Capitalist said, the industrial Revolution did also bring good things. But over all, I like the idea.

	21-12-2000 05:52									#5
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I am not suggesting that the "industrialization" should only have negatives. I agree it had positive effects on societies as well.

I am suggesting that some tech advances would have social effects (positive or negative) in addition to the positive normal benefits of new units/wonders/city improvements etc.

I just think it would be interesting to implement the social effects that some discoveries had.

In the case of industrialization maybe it would be more appropriate if the city improvement, "factory" were to give the increase unhappiness until "labor union" is discovered, not the tech itself. After all, it was the bad working conditions in early factories that produced unrest not the discovery of industrialization.


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[This message has been edited by The diplomat (edited December 20, 2000).]

	21-12-2000 08:36									#6
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one obvious problem with this will be the natural avoidance of such techs with negative effects, especially when things like the Industrial Revolution did so much for nations. I would hate to see Industrialization put on the back burner, when it should be something a player yearns to have.

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	21-12-2000 09:10									#7
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orange: but wouldn't the positives still outweight the negatives?? I mean it gives you factories and such but also a little unhappiness. It seems still worth it to me.



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	21-12-2000 09:32									#8
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well I do see your point, but I think with your example of Industrialization - it only made things bad in the cities...it benefits nations as a whole in a very positive way. So those two cancel out, making the "negative effects" non-existant. And as for Labor Unions reversing this, labor unions also bring positive and negatives. I think you'll find this with any advance, from Astronomy to Nuclear Fission.

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	21-12-2000 18:37									#9
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I like the idea. This, along with a multiple-path tech tree, could make the chouseing of new discoveries more (strategicaly) interesting.

Like you said it very well, in some cases it should be the city improvements that receive the good or bad effect in addition to their original meaning (like the factory, that causes unhappiness). Other discoveries could cause effects on their own, without any additional buildings (for ex. labour union could increase happiness but decrease production).

The only concern I have is that in this case the tech tree needs a very-very good and careful balancing, especially in relation with the social model!

	21-12-2000 18:47									#10
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I do believe that certain ancient buildings which provide a happiness effect should become outdated and replaced by modern alternatives (that are equally cheap to build.) For instance, a tech could make the Arena obsolete but introduce the Music Hall. For a few turns the cities would be unhappier and any surviving Arenas would become tourism generators if not torn down. The additional pollution and overcrowding generated by the industrial techs expanding the size of cities also helps represent the upheaval of the times.

	21-12-2000 21:13									#11
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Diplomat:

I started a related thread on Economic/Industrial effect of advances.

-- Didymus