28-02-2002 00:10									#181
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Ming, I didn't want to blame Serb for the insults. It was meant as an answer for the other Russian poster (datakodin), who demanded to keep the rules of the forum. Just wanted to show, that the guy who he defended, violated the rules too. I didn't want to harm Serb, and I would feel bad if I did.

Serb, I can tell in your last post a more mature approach. Congrats . And don't mess with the Mingster . Remember I once said you, that Yin is God? Forget about this!

	28-02-2002 00:39									#182
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While I admire the passion of the Russian arguments, I am dismayed by their lack of logic.

"Our athletes were not cheating, but if they were, everyone else does it."

This is not consistant. Either they cheated or they didn't. Insulting all other athletes doesn't address the issue.

"Everything the IOC does with drug testing is somehow suspect if they catch Russians."

Attacking the credibility of the drug testing seems surprising. The head of the anti doping lab was recently interviewed and she admitted that they do not catch all the cheats. Just the more obvious ones. Even the head of the IOC gave the two Russians and Spaniard the benefit of the doubt by allowing them to keep six very tainted medals in total won earlier in the games. Those were his words, "tainted". It seems likely that all three athletes were cheating throughout the games but this is unprovable since the darbepoetin test requires both a blood sample and a urine sample to be accurate.

"They took our gold medal away in team crosscountry skiing by coming up with positive doping results at an inconvenient time."

First I disagree with the premise. The gold medal is not guaranteed in any contest, except a fixed one. It seems a stretch that this gold medal would be guaranteed particularly with Russia's star doper disqualified. Second I disagree with the concept that doping results should be delayed until it is a better time for the Russians. Imagine the protest if they had waited until after the event before stripping the Russians of a possible medal.

"It is the Canadian's fault for all our protests, they started it."

Controversy and protest are not unknown in the Olympics. Look back on past Olympics. Protests are nothing new. What was new was the IOC had a signed affidavit from a French judge which said she voted unfairly in the figure skating. The IOC had little choice but to act in that instance. The precedent was not the protest itself, it was the rapid action taken to address the protest.

"Everything is the American's fault."

This strikes me as pure paranoia. From where I am sitting it appears to me that US rapproachment with the Russians is one of their foriegn policy goals. US relations with China are chillier, but the Chinese had unprecedented success at the games. Their best ever. The Americans do not control the IOC and they were not out to cheat anybody. But if they were interested in cheating some country they wouldn't cheat Russia or another important ally, South Korea.

Minor nitpick with Ming: darbepoetin is so new that it is not yet on the banned substances list. However, the class of drugs, which stimulate red blood cell production, are excluded.

Last edited by RedFred on 28-02-2002 at 00:45

	28-02-2002 00:42									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I've been called just about every name in the book. And, nobody has ever been restricted for it.

Really?

quote: My rule is simple... call me what you want, but leave my family and other members of this site out of it.

Relax, I do not even thinking to offend you or your family.
Sorry if I done.
We have different points of view, based on different information, and I think that patriotism is involved here. So, I think we are unable to prove anything to each other. This discussion is useless.

	28-02-2002 01:02									#184
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quote: Originally posted by RedFred "They took our gold medal away in team crosscountry skiing by coming up with positive doping results at an inconvenient time." First I disagree with the premise. The gold medal is not guaranteed in any contest, except a fixed one. It seems a stretch that this gold medal would be guaranteed particularly with Russia's star doper disqualified. Second I disagree with the concept that doping results should be delayed until it is a better time for the Russians. Imagine the protest if they had waited until after the event before stripping the Russians of a possible medal.

First: You are far away from women ski then. In team cross-country skiing our team is out of competition.
Second: It was not DOPPING results it was hemoglobin test it’s absolutely different things.
Third: Read the rules. Because before-start test is the test for hemoglobin level not doping test, (if level of hemoglobin is above average it is suspicion for use of doping, BUT it might be caused by other reasons- not doping) the results of those test MUST be declared to team before one hour, and suspected sportsman must be removed, one sportsman NOT ENTIRE TEAM.

And finally fourth I’m tired of this and I had to sleep. Btw wasn’t it you or it was CrazyHorse who shout about unfair refs in Canada-USA women hockey final?

quote: Controversy and protest are not unknown in the Olympics. Look back on past Olympics. Protests are nothing new.

Yeah, look back.
Americans kicked our asses in fair fight on neutral ground, they were first, we was second. Did russians were unable to accept this defeat? Did we made scandals?

	28-02-2002 01:10									#185
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Back from "off-topic" to "on-topic":

quote: Originally posted by Ming Answer the question... DO YOU DENY THAT YOU GOT CAUGHT CHEATING...

We don't deny it. On the other hand, we cannot whole-heartedly recognize it. I tried to explain some reasons in my post on page 3 ("lack of trust"). Besides, you have been told on multiple occasions that this case is still in the court of appeal, and there is no verdict yet. You seem to persistently ignore this fact.

Also, you seem to persistently ignore the fact that the present discussion is not solely about that fact, even if you want to reduce it to it. There are also other facts under consideration here.

Could you, as a lover of facts, please answer the following couple of questions?

1) Is it a fact that the present olympiad has been the most scandalous in the recent history?

2) Is it a fact that it has been the first time ever that the media and public of a host country so blatantly interfered in the course of the Games?

	28-02-2002 01:17									#186
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond 1) Is it a fact that the present olympiad has been the most scandalous in the recent history?

I would say the ones where they caught Ukrainian and Russian skating judges (and a candian as well, IIRC) on tape trading and fixing votes, along with idicia that it was the standard practice, rather than an aberation.

	28-02-2002 02:56									#187
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond 1) Is it a fact that the present olympiad has been the most scandalous in the recent history? 2) Is it a fact that it has been the first time ever that the media and public of a host country so blatantly interfered in the course of the Games?

1.) No, there have been other olympics where there were considerably more dopers found. And the Ice dancing rigging was suggested at the last olympics . The US/Russian basketball game mentioned prior ranks right up there for me.
So No I don't think it was the most scandalous in history, far from it.

2) This answer could go either way. I believe the decision on the extra gold medals was a result of the evidence they found. Not because of what the papers said. Now whether additional pressure was put on the outcome because of the blitz by the media, I would say yes. And I don't have a problem with that.
Nothing like a free press to shine light and focus attention where some would prefer it not to be.
I don't think the media had any impact on anything but the skating.

Now that I've answered those questions, please try mine.
Do you think your poor performance was possibly caused by
1. Less commitment to the athletes in terms of money.
2. A lot fewer top notch athletes due to the splitting off of some countries from Russia.
3. Got caught cheating.

And Finally, could part of the success of the US in these games be 1. because the extra commitment in terms of dollars (over 80 million than past years?
2. The addition of many new sports (xtreme) sports that the US helped introduce as a means to secure more medals?
3. The fact that since the games were in the US, that the team attracted some people that otherwise it wouldn't have or that the home crowd brought out the best in some. It is quite the motivation.

RAH

	28-02-2002 03:32									#188
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Damnit.

Many of the athletes you unconditionaly defend were found guilty of doping. No one gives a sh*t what premise the IOC investigated the charges on, because in the end THEY WERE FOUND CHEATING.I don't know how it works outside of the western world, but when it becomes substantially apparent that people are cheating, we act on it. We are not willing to let a bunch of criminals hide behind legal loopholes in hopes of getting away with their corrupt actions.

Figure skating - Your filthy bolshevik judges were found cheating with the French. The French judge admitted to being pressured into voting for the Russians in exchange for the same treatment on their end (leave it to the French to pull something like that). Her vote was legally thrown out, and the results were changed accordingly. Now your olympic institution as a whole is guilty of BLATANT CHEATING.

Every civilized nation on the face of the earth has supported these actions against your faltering, pathetic, excuse ridden, "hard done by" country. The only ones to protest these logical decisions have been yourselves, the Russians.

As you desperately cheat to mitigate the effects of your diminishing sports program, this attitude will persist in the vain that THE ENTIRE WORLD IS OUT TO GET YOU. You only know how to blame others for your short comings. I don't know how much simpler it gets than this - So if you don't understand, please go back to your thin borsch stew and continue your malnurished state of paranoid and delusional thinking in silence.

Last edited by Zylka on 28-02-2002 at 03:39

	28-02-2002 03:47									#189
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I'd also like to add that here in Canada we know not to treat our cheaters as heros. Ben Johnson, the classic example already mentioned, came back to the disgust of all Canadians. Most importantly, we did not start pointing fingers at the rest of the world for his pathetic mistake.

You could learn a thing or two - but then again, it's tough to have disgust for goverment supported trickery, isn't it?

	28-02-2002 03:47									#190
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Well, so much for any chance of getting a rational response to my questions

RAH

	28-02-2002 03:49									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka Damnit. I don't know how it works outside of the western world, but when it becomes substantially apparent that people are cheating, we act on it. We are not willing to let a bunch of criminals hide behind legal loopholes in hopes of getting away with their corrupt actions.

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeease!!!

	28-02-2002 03:52									#192
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Well, athletically, at least

Don't get me started on how internationally criminal Russia is economically

	28-02-2002 03:57									#193
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When it's about something serious like sports, there's no shortcuts... anything else: i'll take the fifth!

	28-02-2002 04:35									#194
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quote: Originally posted by rah 1.) No, there have been other olympics where there were considerably more dopers found. And the Ice dancing rigging was suggested at the last olympics . The US/Russian basketball game mentioned prior ranks right up there for me. So No I don't think it was the most scandalous in history, far from it.

Sure, dopers and unfair judging are not new to the Olympics. However, this time it has been even more than that.

Perhaps, you could agree that this has been the most scandalous olympiad since 1988?

quote: Now whether additional pressure was put on the outcome because of the blitz by the media, I would say yes. And I don't have a problem with that.

Sure, *you* don't have any problem with that.

quote: Nothing like a free press to shine light and focus attention where some would prefer it not to be.

Now this is called a triumph of a *free* press. LOL

quote: Now that I've answered those questions, please try mine. Do you think your poor performance was possibly caused by 1. Less commitment to the athletes in terms of money. 2. A lot fewer top notch athletes due to the splitting off of some countries from Russia. 3. Got caught cheating.

1. That's right.
2. Not really. The athletes from other ex-Soviet countries didn't win too many medals here.
3. Better to say, got obstructed. As for the cheating, I've already spoken out on this.

quote: And Finally, could part of the success of the US in these games be 1. because the extra commitment in terms of dollars (over 80 million than past years? 2. The addition of many new sports (xtreme) sports that the US helped introduce as a means to secure more medals? 3. The fact that since the games were in the US, that the team attracted some people that otherwise it wouldn't have or that the home crowd brought out the best in some. It is quite the motivation.

The answer is "yes" to all these questions.

However, on item 2, one could also note that pushing through the sports not widespread in the world into the Olympic program is a kind of latent cheating.

	28-02-2002 05:22									#195
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Sure, dopers and unfair judging are not new to the Olympics. However, this time it has been even more than that. (it has been more than that in tha past too, especially concerning judging or refing) Perhaps, you could agree that this has been the most scandalous olympiad since 1988? (Not really, but you're narrowing it down so far that it loses significance) Sure, *you* don't have any problem with that. (Only because it righted a documented wrong. For god's sake, they weren't even from the US. IF I was a canadian you could accuse me of bias, but not in this case) Now this is called a triumph of a *free* press. LOL (Maybe after Russia has a true Free Press for some time, It will be more appreciated. 1. That's right. 2. Not really. The athletes from other ex-Soviet countries didn't win too many medals here. (but with so few medals, every one would have made a difference) 3. Better to say, got obstructed. As for the cheating, I've already spoken out on this. (OK, I won't argue this one, since it seems unlikely that our opposite opinions will change) The answer is "yes" to all these questions. However, on item 2, one could also note that pushing through the sports not widespread in the world into the Olympic program is a kind of latent cheating. (can't agree here. One it takes more than one country for a sport to be accepted in the olymipics. Two, we didn't win all the medals in those sports, just a better percentage than the more traditional sports. Three, Almost all of the sports (even the most traditional) were not part of the original olympics and when any sport is added, some country will have a natural advantage.

I do appreciate the thoughtful and CIVIL response.
Unlike the route others have chosen to take.

RAH
Sorry for answering inside your quote, but it was easier, and like most americans, I'm lazy, uh, i mean efficient.

	28-02-2002 05:46									#196
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quote: Originally posted by rah I do appreciate the thoughtful and CIVIL response. Unlike the route others have chosen to take.

Thanks. I am totally for a civilized discussion.

quote: Sorry for answering inside your quote, but it was easier, and like most americans, I'm lazy, uh, i mean efficient.

No problem, rah. Just give me your password, and I'll edit your post.

	28-02-2002 05:53									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Very funny.

Thanks. Those first three made me chuckle a bit myself.

	28-02-2002 05:58									#198
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond No problem, rah. Just give me your password, and I'll edit your post.

Rotflmao.

No thanks, Ming does that already. j/k

RAH

	28-02-2002 06:04									#199
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What ever happened to the Canadian snowboarding kid that got his gold taken from him 'cause he like to hit the weed pipe on the regular? That was kinda funny.

quote: Woah man, you're gonna take my what away?!?!?!?!

-FMK

	28-02-2002 08:42									#200
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quote: I would say the ones where they caught Ukrainian and Russian skating judges (and a candian as well, IIRC) on tape trading and fixing votes, along with idicia that it was the standard practice, rather than an aberation

The Canadian was the one doing the taping, actually. She was pissed at the way things worked in that world. There was also a Bulgarian, who announced (a week before the final skate) the exact order all participants would place in.

All the judges on tape fixing the voting were suspended, and the Canadian was suspended for leaking the tapes to the media and making everybody look bad.

	28-02-2002 09:17									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Ming My rule is simple... call me what you want, but leave my family and other members of this site out of it.

Ming,
I think now, I understand what you've mean.
I am sorry, I did not want to insult you. In russian languge this dinasty called "Min" not "Ming". I do not associated you with Royal family, really. When I've adress to you as "your majesty", I was adress to "men in charge", to moderator, I was sarcastic, nothing more. Believe me It wasn't a personal insult based on your family. I am sorry about this.

	28-02-2002 09:21									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Serb In russian languge this dinasty called "Min" not "Ming". I do not associated you with Royal family, really. When I've adress to you as "your majesty", I was adress to "men in charge", to moderator,

ROTFLMAO...


So that's what you were saying... I had no clue. I don't read Russian.
Oh... and thanks for the apology.

I made the comment about my "simple rule" to highlight what is and what isn't against my rules. It really wasn't directed at you, or your comments... so really... no problem.

	28-02-2002 09:24									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka We are not willing to let a bunch of criminals hide behind legal loopholes in hopes of getting away with their corrupt actions.

Don't make me laugh. I think you are the world's champions in that.

quote: Figure skating - Your filthy bolshevik judges were found cheating with the French. The French judge admitted to being pressured into voting for the Russians in exchange for the same treatment on their end (leave it to the French to pull something like that). Her vote was legally thrown out, and the results were changed accordingly.

She agreed also that she was under pressure of Canadians, not only Russians.

quote: Every civilized nation on the face of the earth has supported these actions against your faltering, pathetic, excuse ridden, "hard done by" country. The only ones to protest these logical decisions have been yourselves, the Russians.

quote: I don't know how much simpler it gets than this - So if you don't understand, please go back to your thin borsch stew and continue your malnurished state of paranoid and delusional thinking in silence.

Ming,
Is it a nationalistic insult? Look's like he want to said that Russians are not civilized people.

	28-02-2002 09:30									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Ming, Is it a nationalistic insult? Look's like he want to said that Russians are not civilized people.

That's actually not bad considering what people say about America all the time around here...

Look... that's really mild. And low level flaming will continue on this site. We stop the over the board stuff, and try to keep things from getting out of hand. Many of the issues being discussed here are very emotional. (as can be seen with your support of your athletes in this thread)... so again... we would probably have to ban everybody, and close most of the threads if barbs being traded back forth was reason enough.

I hear what you say... if it continues, yes, it will be a problem. But until then...
Again... look at some of the Anti American threads and see what we put up with most of the time

	28-02-2002 09:33									#205
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quote: She agreed also that she was under pressure of Canadians, not only Russians

A week after she made the original statement and she realised how badly she'd ****ed herself over by saying it. BTW, she never made a statement against the Russians directly; she said her own federation had told her how to vote, then later changed her story and said the the French skating fed. hadn't said anything to her, but that Canadian officials had made professional and physical threats against her.

	28-02-2002 09:57									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Many of the issues being discussed here are very emotional. (as can be seen with your support of your athletes in this thread)... so again... we would probably have to ban everybody, and close most of the threads if barbs being traded back forth was reason enough.

I has no problem with this. I've just want to point that not only Russians might be very emotional in their posts.

	28-02-2002 09:59									#207
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse she said her own federation had told her how to vote, then later changed her story and said the the French skating fed. hadn't said anything to her, but that Canadian officials had made professional and physical threats against her.

Do you agreed that big sport always was a dirty thing?

	28-02-2002 10:16									#208
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quote: Do you agreed that big sport always was a dirty thing?

Not always by any means, and when somebody like that judge makes it sufficiently obvious even to the sleazesters that run the Fig. Skating Assoc. that there was impropriety involved, they have to do something. Otherwise we just throw up our hands.

	28-02-2002 10:19									#209
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Not always by any means,

But in general? Do you deny that every country lobby it's self-interests, and sometimes using any means, including dirty means?

	28-02-2002 10:26									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Serb But in general? Do you deny that every country lobby it's self-interests, and sometimes using any means, including dirty means?

That they lobby for their own self=interests... sure they do. I would expect no different... as far as using any means, including dirty means.. NO... absolutely not.

Are their individuals in every country who might... yeah... athletes are humans too. But no, I don't think every or many countries will use any means just for a sports victory.

Now, if you want to talk war