26-02-2002 14:15									#1
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How many people do leaders get in an average game??
What do you use them for??
Which units do you find best for leader-generation, and what era?

In my current game I have got 16 leaders, with about 130 turns left, If there's a wonder to be had, I usually use a leader on that, but if not then I create an Army. My usual playstyle is to build an ARMY as soon as I can and then get the Heroic Epic - So i can more leaders. I find high movement units perfect for leader generation.

	26-02-2002 14:38									#2
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Shhhh, Rothy. You'll have faux Romans popping up everywhere.

Best keep the Latin advantage a secret.

Salve

	26-02-2002 19:55									#3
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The highest # of leaders I've gotten was 8, and I've had 7 once or twice (8 with the Babs, 7 with the Egyptians... and I think the Iroquois). Usually, though, it's between 2 and 4. I don't usually play militaristic civs, although I do have a Japanese game I should get back to at some point.

I don't build armies anymore unless I'm getting leaders from a Modern war and I don't have a Wonder to rush. Leader #1 is usually transformed into the Forbidden Palace. The next few become things like Sun Tzu, ToE, Hoover, depending on when I get them. I know that having the Heroic Epic will help with leader generation, but since I normally only get about 3 or 4 leaders throughout a game, I don't know that it's worth using one of them in the hopes of gaining an extra one later. Usually, there is something I consider crucial that I want to rush (like the F.P. or a key Wonder).

The best units for leader generation are Tanks and Modern Armor. The ability to fight multiple battles in the same turn greatly increases their chances of becoming elite and then popping a leader. In my 8 leader and 7 leader games, the last 3 or 4 came from Tanks or M.A.

-Arrian

	26-02-2002 20:12									#4
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I don't count them, but I wouldn't be surprised if I've gotten as many as 15 to 20 in a game. I've also had games where I've gotten 0.

If I played a strict builder strategy I forego armies altogether. If I'm militaristic or hybrid warmonger/builder I usually build a swordsman army with my first leader. If I was going with the hybrid approach but only planned a single early war, I'd rush a forbidden palace. Nowadays I'd rather rush a palace but I haven't played a builder strategy lately.

	26-02-2002 21:42									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Rothy How many people do leaders get in an average game?? What do you use them for?? Which units do you find best for leader-generation, and what era? In my current game I have got 16 leaders, with about 130 turns left, If there's a wonder to be had, I usually use a leader on that, but if not then I create an Army. My usual playstyle is to build an ARMY as soon as I can and then get the Heroic Epic - So i can more leaders. I find high movement units perfect for leader generation.

I only got armies from huts (THANK YOU FIRAXIS FOR THAT "LITTLE" BUG ). I only got two leaders that both died at the hand of those damn russians. Don't forget I had the game since December, and since then only TWO leaders that died (I got them some time last week). I have conquered the world many times and with no results (even with militeristic civs).

So IMHO: Rarely do you get leaders.

	27-02-2002 01:54									#6
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I normally get about 9 leaders out of each game. I mostly used them to build Wonders and the spaceship.

	27-02-2002 03:50									#7
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Once as Romans I got a leader almost immediately. Then once as Germans I fought large scale war for centuries and never got a leader. Anecdotal I know.

The most I have gotten is 3, with France. I think I followed the rules for getting leaders (save elites for easy wins and all), but I seem to have poor luck at getting them.

I think leaders are too important to leave to chance this way. I usually need a leader for a good FP position, so I am forced to go to war to get one and then its a matter of luck. I hate having my empire wait for a leader. If they only built armies it would work, but the rush-build ability is a huge thing to leave to chance.

Still I must be doing something wrong. 15 to 20 leaders! Wow. I was impressed by Arrian's numbers too. With getting that many, it doesn't seem like leaders are a matter of chance for you guys.

How do you do it?

	27-02-2002 03:58									#8
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We should be able to get Great Leader not just from combat but also from important construction or something else.
As it is, players are forced to fight if they want a leader.

	27-02-2002 04:22									#9
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I agree. Great Leaders weren't only created in battle, but also through tough times our country has gone through other than wars. There should be a way to either build them, or a rando chance to get a great leader if you pull your civ through a roug time. I don't know how they would implement it, but that is what I think!

	27-02-2002 04:40									#10
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nato,

Constant warfare in the modern age. As soon as you get a leader, use him for something. I've got 2 leaders in a single turn at least twice now, and I'm hoping to do three sometime. The new patch may have put that out of reach, however, as the AI civs catch up faster. Having a tech lead makes it easier.

Panzers and modern armor produce the most. Two of my favorite civs are militaristic, too. I also use a lot of bombard units... a stack of maybe 20 artillery and a stack of 20 bombers doesn't sound out of line. Having a lot of bombard units may have an indirect effect on producing a lot of elites and leaders.

I also sacrifice elite units, esp. the types that don't upgrade. I don't baby those guys. I can always get more.

I wish I had solid numbers, because the 15 to 20 thing is just an estimate. Maybe I'll play a German pangea next and keep notes, I bet I could crank out a lot on a pangea, esp. a large.

Last, I've played quite a bit: At least one full game a week since I got it for Xmas. I've slowed down lately.

	27-02-2002 05:20									#11
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Thanks for the tips Ironikinit. You must really know what you are doing, because I have never dreamed of getting so many leaders. I'm usually desperate just to get two!

I play Germans too, mostly for the Militaristic help in getting leaders.

I do use big bombard stacks like you say. I was attracted to those since my first game.

However, I have always babied elites and tried to give them only easy fights, which is just the opposite of what you say. Maybe the higher numbers of battles (thus more chances for leaders) counts for more than keeping them alive?

One thing though, you mention modern warfare ... do you get leaders early? I really want to get a leader to rush build FP, which I want to do before modern times so half my empire isn't stagnant.

Anyway thanks for the tips ... you must really be doing it right to get such better results.

	27-02-2002 21:27									#12
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Nato,

I try to optimize things, but I still have games sometimes where no matter what I do, I scratch and claw to get 1 leader. It happens (and happened to me as the Germans, which sucked. 1 leader from the very first elite victory... none after, three AI empires destroyed. Go figure).

I find that Knights are pretty good for leader generation, assuming that other civs are using nothing better. they are balanced units, and do well on defense. So when you put a stack of them on a hill preparing to attack a city, any AI counterattack will hit your elite (most hp), which will usually win. Also, I do tend to reserve an elite for the last enemy defender when taking cities. AI cities usually have two defenders and one attacker stationed in them (with knights, we're usually talkin' pikeman, pikeman, longbowman). I hit with the vets to soften up/kill the defenders and then polish 'em off with the elites.

Ironikinit is right that Tanks and Modern Armor are great for leaders... but of course leaders are more valueable earlier on. That's why I like fighting in the middle ages... well, one of the reasons. I also like to trigger my golden age then, if I haven't already done so by building wonders. The tech progress rate in 1.17 makes this harder to pull off, because you have less time to build up your forces.

-Arrian

p.s. I play normal maps, btw. So I was pretty happy with 8 leaders

	27-02-2002 21:45									#13
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I think the most I've ever had was 4 from a non-militaristic Civ, but since I try not to go to war if I can avoid it, I have many games where I don't get any. I guess most great leaders come from attack units, since if you are on the offensive they will see the most action. Has anyone out there ever gotten a GL from a defensive Elite unit winning a battle?

Nimokmai

	27-02-2002 22:25									#14
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Yes, I've gotten several leaders from defensive wins. Sometimes it was a defensive win with an attack unit (I remember a knight that won a battle defending an open plain, unfortified, and popped a leader. I was pleased with that unit). I've gotten a leader from a Bab bowman defending a city against a Zulu horde.

But you're right, the offensive units see the most action, and therefore will generate the most leaders. The AI will most often avoid attacking an elite defensive unit, because the odds aren't real good - it will pick an easier fight. Or, if it does attack that unit, it's usually because it's out in the open, where the odds are you will lose it.

-Arrian

	27-02-2002 22:27									#15
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I average anywhere between 2-8 per game. I don't do anything special, I don't use any special strategies to try and increase generation, other than using my first leader as an army to get the Heroic Epic built. I am not an overly war mongering civ, in fact I have never even played as a militaristic civ... I do have games where they are few and far between...

And yes, I have had them generated from defensive units.

	28-02-2002 05:55									#16
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Thanks for the help Arrian.

I hate not getting leaders with Germans, since Militaristic is the whole reason I'm playing them!

I'm starting to wonder if maybe you guys are just better builders than me, and thus have many more units, leading to many more chances for a leader. My offensives are sometimes a little thin in troops, especially if I'm going mounted instead of combined arms.

	28-02-2002 06:06									#17
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cant believe ppl find it so hard
I have 18 in this game and Expect to get many more considering Modern Armour hasnt even been discovered yet!

	28-02-2002 06:15									#18
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My god Rothy! 18?!

That is just not my experience at all. I like to think I'm a reasonably smart guy, but I must be missing something. That or just plain bad luck, which with a 1 in 12 chance for a leader is possible I guess.

Waiter! I'll have whatever Rothy is having.

	28-02-2002 08:28									#19
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viagRex (tm)

	28-02-2002 09:09									#20
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OK, so I started a game thinking that I'd keep a count of leaders. It really wasn't very hard to keep track, because I've gotten exactly 1.

I'm not terribly disappointed because I've only had one war (embarassed, yes, disappointed, no). I'm leading the histogram by 300 points and the tech race by two techs (not counting dead ends), so I'm not itchy to go to war on another continent.

One good tip came to me from this game that don't think has been mentioned in this thread, pretty much a sure fire way to get an early leader. In your ancient war, save the attack on their capital for later, until after you've got two or three elites promoted. If you take their capital with an elite unit, you have an excellent chance of getting a leader.

	28-02-2002 21:10									#21
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Ironikinit,

Are you sure about taking a capitol improving chances for a leader? I think you're right, I just don't know how to confirm it. But the advice is sound, I think.

Nato,

I dunno if my leader generation is luck or skill. I really don't. Like I said, I had a game as the Germans where I just couldn't get a (second) leader, despite fighting a whole lot. That kinda put me off of the militaristic attribute... and I haven't played as a militaristic civ since.

I consider a game with 3-4 leaders a success. That gives me a forbidden palace and 2-3 wonders. If I were a warmonger... well, I think I'd need more to be satisfied.

-Arrian

p.s. Although it's cheating, there is a sure-fire way to get a leader: say you have a stack of troops, vets and elites ready to attack a city. Say you hit that city with a vet, and it gets promoted. Reload the prior turn, do everything the same, EXCEPT for that veteran attack... switch to an elite, hit, and *presto* leader. Someone else figured this out right after Civ III came out, and I tested it - it works. I don't use it, but sometimes (like in that awful German game I had) it's tempting.

	28-02-2002 21:38									#22
	LEADERS Suffering from ads?

1. Forbiden palce
2. Army
3. Capital
4,5,6... Wonders