26-02-2002 22:48									#1
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I think armies are useless. I only use the first leader to build an army to get my first victory with it so that I can build the heroic epic. That's it. I never make armies cuz they suck at attacking and defending. I'd ratter have 4 seperate tanks than 4 in one armie. And I'm sure that 4 seperate tanks can easily kill an army of 4 tanks. So what do y'all think?

Spec.

	26-02-2002 22:58									#2
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I find them very usefull..

On attack... An army of 4 modern tanks is great for taking out the best defending unit in a city. Granted, bombardment can have a similar effect by knocking the unit down a notch and make it easier to kill... but sometimes I'm running fast in enemy territory, with no possible support of artiliary, air, or ships.

In the later part of the game, I find myself with tons of modern tanks... and I just blitz my way across the country side.

On defense... they are very usefull for establishing a landing on an enemy land mass when they have a complete rail network in place. I just drop an army of 4 mech inf on a mountain with the rest of the invading force... 1000 tanks and bombers later, there is usually more than enough of an attack force left to do the job.

Yeah... they could be stronger, and I think they are poorly designed... but knowing the limitations just made me come up with effective ways to use them. After you have built all the good wonders, you might as well use them for something

	26-02-2002 22:58									#3
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I always use my first leader for an army of either knights or swordsmen, depending on the age. Then I go on to win that war . I then build armies of infantry using the military academy to protect my border cities, or act as mobile bases for artillery and offensive units. The AI will almost never attack them unless they are badly damaged. They are not essential for me to win, but they make my military situation a lot more stabile, on attack and on defense. I will usually build an army of tanks if I am invading before I have access to modern armor, and my opponent has mech. infantry. I use it to take out the first, strong defender in a city, which often is backed up by obsolete units that are easy pickings for the rest of my tanks.

	26-02-2002 23:03									#4
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What I hate is this. Modern Armor by it self can attack twice atleast but if you put it in an army it can only attack once!! That's why I find them useless, it limits the damage it could really do! If you have 4 Modern Armor in an army that means that you attack once instead of 8 times!! That's a BIG difference.

Spec.

	26-02-2002 23:06									#5
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I may have been hallucinating, but I thought the 1.17 patch gave armies composed entirely of units with blitz ability the ability to attack twice. Still not as good as 8 times, but, you will almost definately not lose a unit when attacking with the army. I would be very scared of an army of modern armor, even if I knew it could only attack once or twice.

	26-02-2002 23:08									#6
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I find them useful, especially in defense. One reason has already been mentioned by Ming (invasion of a continent), plus, I use armies as artillery defenders and as mobile "hospitals" for my wounded attackers.

For attack they are not as useful, because they can attack only once. I use one or at most two as "nutcrackers", but in general I like to attack with single units, so I can manage when to attack with a regular, veteran or elite unit, to get leaders.

I don't use more than one leader for armies though. I build the others in the Military academy.

	26-02-2002 23:09									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Spectator What I hate is this. Modern Armor by it self can attack twice atleast but if you put it in an army it can only attack once!! That's why I find them useless, it limits the damage it could really do! If you have 4 Modern Armor in an army that means that you attack once instead of 8 times!! That's a BIG difference.

True...
But individually, a modern tank unit will usually lose to a well fortified mech inf in a city... You might lose 2, 3, 4, or even more tanks trying to take it out. An army will usually do the trick, and allow the rest of your modern tanks to mop up.

	26-02-2002 23:14									#8
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The basic Army is useful but not critical. In a mobile attack it's always nice to have ONE unit that's practically invulnerable. No amount of bombardment is going to make a 15-HP unit combat-ineffective, and with the new retreat rules it's useful to have one first-wave attacker that you know you won't lose. Especially in the middle Industrial Age, when you might be throwing Cavalry (6 attack) against Infantry (10 defense plus city bonus).

To make it more useful, go into the editor. Give it "Blitz" (regardless of what units are in it), have it give a Zone of Control, and maybe Radar or something. Suddenly it becomes useful again.

The other limiting factor is rarity. Since you need an Army to get the Military Academy, you might never see an AI Army. Since they can't upgrade, early-game Armies tend to get wiped out. Personally, I use my first Leader for the Forbidden Palace, the second for an Army, and the third on up for all those Middle Ages wonders (I play the Chinese, who are Militaristic), but the AI doesn't think this way. I've seen the AI make an Army of Warriors.

So, in my game I made it so that Armies can Unload (to upgrade) and removed the "victorious" requirement from the Academy. Try a few of these changes and you'll start using them more, and more importantly the computer will start using them against you.

	26-02-2002 23:17									#9
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I find them useful, for the same reasons posted by Ming. You just have to develop new strategies to use them, and seize the opportunity... Sometimes, an army may change the fate of a war...

	27-02-2002 01:28									#10
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I find the armies useless.

It's not that they don't have a good effect on battlefield, but I just find them out of place and counter-immersive.
I just don't see WHY the designers put these strange things in the game, and ate up a third of the small wonders to improve them.
Well, they're too artificial and coming out of the blue.

	27-02-2002 01:30									#11
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well considering I never made one, I had to vote useless.

	27-02-2002 01:37									#12
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i Make extensive use of Armies in my game, in my current I have the maximum i can build atm (12). It's the Insurance.... I've only ever had one defensive Army defeated before, but it was en route shall we say, had it been fortified in a city it would never have lost.

I found a VERY good Use in my current game. Im in a war with the massively powerful Japanese in my current game, I got Tanks before them.. and needed to milk this for all it's worth as they were by far the better power. So I sent SEVEN stacked Armies each of 4 tanks towards the Jap Capital, after burning down a couple of thier vital cities on the way, I am now going to do Stiel's Capital Isolation... I dont care how many bloody cavalry they have, there is absolutly no chance they will be able to take out a STACK of SEVEN Armies... After destroying thier roads I will encamp outside thier capital (until Modern Armor approaches) and never let them get thier road system back up.

Had i just sent 28 Tanks to do this, Sure, it might have also been successful (and i could have pillaged quicker) but I could lose many units, until i was eventually picked off and my force decimated.

	27-02-2002 01:38									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident well considering I never made one, I had to vote useless.

There is a grave flaw in your logic here, but I will let you figure out what it is.

	27-02-2002 01:44									#14
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how so?

you don't know how I'm saying it.

Because I never found a need for armies, I never built them. So therefore they must be useless

	27-02-2002 01:50									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident how so? you don't know how I'm saying it. Because I never found a need for armies, I never built them. So therefore they must be useless

Now, if you changed your statement to "Because I never need armies, they are useless to me" it would be logical. I still wouldn't agree with you though.

	27-02-2002 01:52									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Because I never found a need for armies, I never built them. So therefore they must be useless

And Atomic Bombs are useless to a Chimpanzee. Does that mean A-Bombs are useless?

	27-02-2002 02:07									#17
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i luv landing about 5 or 6 armies of panzer tanks into an enemys base and destroying thegit that way... noting beats rolling them over so easily...

	27-02-2002 02:12									#18
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quote: Originally posted by N. Machiavelli And Atomic Bombs are useless to a Chimpanzee. Does that mean A-Bombs are useless?

Come on now....It's a simple poll, either you use them or you dont, I just wanna know why you do or dont, I dont wanna know who's right.

Spec.

	27-02-2002 02:14									#19
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Armies.....love 'em.


In my experiences they only work well when composed of either tanks or modern armor (for attack) or infantry or mech infantry (for defense).

One army of 3 tanks can knock out a mech infantry defender. An army can absorb a lot of damage before being destroyed. They do have their limits, but as Ming pointed out they have their uses if used properly.

Rock on !

	27-02-2002 02:17									#20
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Yep, Armies are definatly something that 'have to be made use of properly'

Think about, would you feel safe feeling sending 28 tanks in a stack towards your rival with nearly 100 cities and a (at least) 500 strong unit military. I woudnt, my units would be picked off before they could complete thier mission. But do i feel safe sending Seven Stacked Armies?? Absolutly, I'll be laughing in a couple of turns when Japan's entire trade system is crippled.

	27-02-2002 13:18									#21
	Re: Do you find armies to be useless? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Spectator I think armies are useless. I only use the first leader to build an army to get my first victory with it so that I can build the heroic epic. That's it. I never make armies cuz they suck at attacking and defending. I'd ratter have 4 seperate tanks than 4 in one armie. And I'm sure that 4 seperate tanks can easily kill an army of 4 tanks. So what do y'all think? Spec.

Editor: switch of 'victorious army needed'. Gotta love that editor. Now if I could figure out how to trigger leaders without combat the leader thing would be done.

Robert

	27-02-2002 15:56									#22
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Ave !!!

In the late game an Army of modern armors is the only almost certain way to take out an mechanized infantry defending a large city. I remember wasting 10 veteran modern armors taking out one initially regular but subsequently elite mechanized infantry, and that just eats the bisquit.

A late game war is tedious anyway but I am determined to win one, my current, Deity game by conquest.

- Oho -

	27-02-2002 19:26									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Spatzimaus So, in my game I made it so that Armies can Unload (to upgrade) and removed the "victorious" requirement from the Academy. Try a few of these changes and you'll start using them more, and more importantly the computer will start using them against you.

You can actually make an army unload?? I thought I've read in other threads that the 'unload' function did not work for armies.

	27-02-2002 20:18									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Martinus Magnificus You can actually make an army unload?? I thought I've read in other threads that the 'unload' function did not work for armies.

AFAIK, there is a bug in v1.17f patch that allows this. If you stack, say, an army of 3 tanks with two other tanks (out of the army, of course) and order these two tanks to move using the stack command ("j" key), then ALL tanks will move to the specified location, therefore unloading the army (which will stay in its original square). Then you can load new units onto it. But this method is surely unstable, and can make your game crash (it crashed on me).

I don't know if this was fixed; I heard something about a newer version of v1.17f, that supposedly fixes the "army found in a hut" thing. Don't know if this version removed the unloading bug, though.

You cannot use the editor to make an army unload, can you?

	27-02-2002 21:04									#25
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If you have the leader to spare, an army of defenders would be the perfect accompaniant to the artillery/workers that facilitate an assault. However, that's a big "if." Despite 5 - 6,000 years of war, I seldom see more than 2 - 4 leaders. These get consumed by wonder construction or the FP. So, I voted "useless," mostly because they are never a high enough priority to me. I like Ming's suggestion though, as invasion of an AI-controlled continent is a very tough nut to crack.

	28-02-2002 05:49									#26
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My favorite serious use for an Army is to guard my bombard stack. No way I want to lose my 40 Artillery!

I am hoping the blitz and ZOC will make them more useful. Back when they did not have this ability, I used to like to make an "honor guard". This would be an Army of my unique unit that would guard my capital. Doesn't affect the game, but qualifies for "Just fun to have but not to use".

	01-03-2002 23:15									#27
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quote: Originally posted by kailhun Editor: switch of 'victorious army needed'. Gotta love that editor. Now if I could figure out how to trigger leaders without combat the leader thing would be done. Robert

Thanks man but...I dont need armies, I need leaders. So I'll do that with the Heroic epic...if it works.

	04-03-2002 17:40									#28
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Armies are one toy more to tinker with, imho. I don't even build the first one(for Heroic Epic) because there's always something more important to build. And I had games where I didn't get leaders after The Heroic Epic anymore.