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colossus
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Hong Kong
Nov 1999
time: 05:12
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One of the worst feature of civ2 is the dumb AI.
They have poor concepts of advances, governments, city locations, trades and military operations.
Why so pathetic?
The reason is that we human player are constantly improving. We have developed numerous strategies: ICS, SSC, Democracy rush and so on. AIs are bound to be pathetic using their primitive strategy against us.
It's pretty safe to assume that the civ3 AIs will turn dumb soon after the release, for we are improving so fast!
I believe the most feasible way to enhance the AI is to create the AI personality file. The file is used to determine for AI:
1.Priority of scientific research
2.City location and expansion of civilization
3.When and where and whether to build city improvements
4.Wonder construction
5.Government forms
6.Military operation subdivided to
a.The number and type of units to be built
b.The number and type of units for offense and defense.
c.Use of terrain to enhance military effectiveness
d.Naval support, escort and control of the sea
e.Air support to attack and defense
In short, the AI personality file summarizes how the AIs play the game.
In this way, as our skill improve, we can change the personality file to 'teach' the AIs new atrategies and counter. If the AI personality file cannot be made customizable in the editor, at least I hope it would be easy to rewrite(something like C++).
Constantly updating the AIs is the only way to make it long time enjoyable and challenging.
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Ralf
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Sweden
Mar 2000
time: 06:12
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This is actually a really good (and necessary) AI-related suggestion. I called it "pre-made templates" a couple of months ago, when i post it the first time.
You can compare it with a blind man being given exact blind-read instructions how to move around inside an unknown building. He can follow this instructions meticulously and rather effectively. If he never the less bump into something - he temporally put his blind-read map in his pocket, and starts to feel ahead and analyze the situation. Soon feeling confident, he can take the map up again.
The only "problem" is that as soon as some civers hear words like "AI templates" or pre-made extensive "personality files", they suddenly suspects that this system is to rigid, or easy to outproduce and predict (as if the AI in current Civ-2/SMAC/CTP-2 games, isnt prime examples of just those problems).
One realy nice benefit is that each indevidual AI-civ can have several variants of different (but still similar) personality files within a map, to randomly choose from, when any new game starts. Also, the player can edit his own personality files, or upload/download several ones from the internet. So much for "lack of variations".
There are built in limits of course - the programmers cant let you move around units with "templates". Also, the diplomacy is an area thats changing in unpredictable ways, from turn to turn. Theres no given "firm point" so to speak, from which one can use automatic extensive personality files, or AI "blindread maps". But, then it comes to overal strategical logistics - these AI templates can (and should) be used extensively, as much as possible.
About your second point: "City location and expansion of civilization" - check out my third post in the second page of the permanent "Civ-3 editing tools: what do YOU want to see" topic. That idea could be applied to the map-generator as well.
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colossus
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Hong Kong
Nov 1999
time: 05:12
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Good point Taurus.
But I am afraid Firaxis may not be so generous.
After all, it is from apolyton that we got fanatics to do all those scenerios, patch and research. It would be nice if we can upgrade the AI here, which would be much more responsive.
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Ralf
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Sweden
Mar 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by hHydro on 12-27-2000 06:31 PM
That sort of 'randomized template' would be great.
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I certainly agree to that.  Some civers responds, however, somewhat rigidly then they read words like "AI templates" or "Pre-designated AI cities", without thinking any further. They just dont see the enormoues scenario- and main-game player-customizing possibilities in it.
Instead many civers sets their hopes on that a freely available AI source-code in itself should lead to some kind magic Holy Grail wonder-solution. As if this could change the AI into some kind of "pass a turing-test" candidate.
I know thats rather unrealistic because of good reasons - at least in a game like Civilization. What Firaxis can DO however, is to try to...
1: Avoid as much as possible, built-in AI weak-spot, already in the early game-design stage.
A prime example of this, is to rigidly insist on that both the AI city-area management and the AI city-placement management, can (and should) ONLY be done on "100% human-player terms". Thats to say, by litterally and "physically" move around AI-settlers on the map.
There are other much more effective ways to achieve above, without any resource-, lightbulb-, food- and money-cheating whatsoever. Ways that can be fine-tuned by the player, or scenario-creator himself, to be either controlled or randomized - in much better detail, then that "physical AI-settler" approach can ever hope to achieve.
The second related thing that Firaxis can do, is to try to:
2: Make the AI much more player-inputable and tweak-able, with help of more elaborate and more extensive txt-files, there the player can try to lead-guide the AI - more then ever before - by giving it lots of template-alternatives, in as many overal strategical areas as possible.
That is what this topic is about, i believe. Examples of more important strategical areas, there the player/scenario-creator should be allowed to tweak some great home-made alternatives, is:
- Multiple AI city-improvement template paths.
- Multiple AI unit-improvement template paths.
- Multiple AI in-which-order unit/CI/wonder templates, with second/third best wonder-alternatives.
- Multiple AI tech-tree development template paths.
Read about more alternatives in Colossus initial post.
Infact, the game could be tweaked to "record" all above human-player paths, and send them to simple text-file, from which the player/scenario-creator, later have something to work on.
- Its all about giving the AI lots of "traction"; lots of "firm points", from which the AI can work more efficiently.
- Its about "spoon-feeding the AI", with lots of parallell txt-input template-alternatives, from which the AI can randomize choices from - from one civ-game to another.
[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited December 28, 2000).]
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hHydro
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Vancouver, Canada,
Nov 2000
time: 05:12
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Hear hear.
And unfortunately, though there are tonnes of great ideas in these forums, it means only implimenting features that the AI can be taught to use WELL.
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22-12-2000 10:55
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