02-03-2002 01:06									#31
	Re: Gallup poll: how muslims view the US Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus From cnn.com Gallup poll: 9,924 adults in 9 muslim countries between december 2001 and januari 2002. Did Arab groups carry out Sept.11th attacks: 18% Yes 61% No

Time and time again I hear *****ing and moaning about how the American public is so uninformed and, frankly, stupid. Well, you know what? At least in the United States we have a representative government and an open and free media that actually investigates claims made by our leaders. IOW, people in the U.S. can be ignorant only if they choose to be (and, yes, there are those types out there).

In the Arab world, ignorance is the rule, and it is used by the dictatorial and monarchial leaders to their benefit. There is no free and open media there. Time and time again I've read reports of government and religious-controlled media spouting off on things that would get any U.S. media group sued for spreading misinformation.

My point? The poll numbers above do not surprise me the least bit. What else can you expect from people whose leaders really don't have their best interests at heart?

Yeah, I know what one response to the above paragraph will be, and it revolves around Bush's alleged stupidity. But at least we can toss the man and his minions out office in 2004 via the ballot. Tell me this: In how many Arab nations can the public do that to their leaders?*

CYBERAmazon

(*Edit: Iran does come to mind, but does that include the ayatollahs? After all, they seem to be the ones blocking any progress made by more moderate elements in the government.)

	02-03-2002 01:09									#32
	Re: Re: Gallup poll: how muslims view the US Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by CYBERAmazon In how many Arab nations can the public do that to their leaders?

1.

(yes, I know it was a rhetorical question )

	02-03-2002 01:10									#33
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Thanks for the replies

The telephone enquiry reminded me that psychological attack on the Taliban where they called him 100 times asking him if he wanetd to buy something and he then just killed himself in desperation

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I havent been able to find any surveys on general US opinion on muslims in general, but the above should serve as warning that reciprocity of hatred doesnt always exist, no matter how comforting it may be to think it does. LOTM

LOTM,
there are such surveys. I'll try and get one for you.
meanwhile it is clear where the americans stand now.

Friends: Europe, Britain especially.

Enemies: muslims.

I'll try to find it.

	02-03-2002 01:15									#34
	Re: Re: Gallup poll: how muslims view the US Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by CYBERAmazon My point? The poll numbers above do not surprise me the least bit. What else can you expect from people whose leaders really don't have their best interests at heart?

Many muslim nations have repressive regimes (you can call them dictatorships bu western termonology) who in many cases have the active support of the US.

They hate their regimes as much as they US for supporting them.

And it's true that these regimes have not the interests of their people at heart (what dictatorship ever did?)

The forces that are trying to overthrow these regimes are the islamist fractions of these nations and the left-wing fractions(the democratic choice). (both kept down by murder and terrorism).

	02-03-2002 01:27									#35
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Nope sorry.
It was an american survey broadcasted on CNN International.

CNN's website doesn't seem to have it.

	02-03-2002 01:28									#36
	Re: Re: Re: Gallup poll: how muslims view the US Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Many muslim nations have repressive regimes (you can call them dictatorships bu western termonology) who in many cases have the active support of the US. They hate their regimes as much as they US for supporting them. And it's true that these regimes have not the interests of their people at heart (what dictatorship ever did?) The forces that are trying to overthrow these regimes are the islamist fractions of these nations and the left-wing fractions(the democratic choice). (both kept down by murder and terrorism).

The United States is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't. We're hit on for supporting repressive regimes in the Middle East and we'll get bit in buttocks if we would ever actually try to overthrow the same regimes and replace them with more democratic regimes.

Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Kuwait (maybe Jordan) come to mind in regards to the paragraph above. Those are the only regimes that I can think of where what U.S. leaders desire may actually make the leaders of those countries "carry out our wishes." In any case, those countries sure as h*ll aren't nice, obedient U.S. puppets, are they? They're snippy, haunty and talk back too much to be proper U.S. puppets!

Elsewhere, Iran, Syria and Iraq definitely are not "controlled" by America and Turkey is its own entity (and member of NATO). Afghanistan is still up in the air — have to wait for their loya jirga to finish to have an idea where they're heading.

CYBERAmazon

	02-03-2002 01:36									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Yep... you could probably buy lists from any Jewish, Christian, or just about any organization... But that's not needed either. It would probably be asked as one of the screening questions... Question one... ARE YOU JEWISH If not... thank you very much for your time... click...

Precisely.

LOTM

	02-03-2002 01:38									#38
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quote: In the Arab world, ignorance is the rule, and it is used by the dictatorial and monarchial leaders to their benefit. There is no free and open media there. Time and time again I've read reports of government and religious-controlled media spouting off on things that would get any U.S. media group sued for spreading misinformation.

A bit overly simplistic, don't you think? Not all the arab/muslim nations have represive regimes, and there are democracies. Furthermore, Al Jazeera is a big free broadcasting network based in Qatar, and they aren't the only free and open media out there. It's true that Al Jazeera (and the BBC, CNN, etc) are banned in some arab/muslim countries, but certainly not in most.

	02-03-2002 01:42									#39
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Mark.....tell us about these "Arab" democracies. Where are they?



And the only arab's who watch al-jazeera are the ones with big satelitte dishes btw. Gov's outside of Bahrain dont broadcast it.

	02-03-2002 01:57									#40
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Mark.....tell us about these "Arab" democracies. Where are they?

I said "arab/muslim", countries like Algeria, Turkey and Indonesia.

	02-03-2002 02:02									#41
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all 3 are insignificant, pro-western nations. The majority polled were from those nations.


also, Tunisia is democracy i believe.

	02-03-2002 02:02									#42
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Gallup poll: how muslims view the US Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by CYBERAmazon The United States is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't. We're hit on for supporting repressive regimes in the Middle East and we'll get bit in buttocks if we would ever actually try to overthrow the same regimes and replace them with more democratic regimes. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Kuwait (maybe Jordan) come to mind in regards to the paragraph above. Those are the only regimes that I can think of where what U.S. leaders desire may actually make the leaders of those countries "carry out our wishes." In any case, those countries sure as h*ll aren't nice, obedient U.S. puppets, are they? They're snippy, haunty and talk back too much to be proper U.S. puppets! Elsewhere, Iran, Syria and Iraq definitely are not "controlled" by America and Turkey is its own entity (and member of NATO). Afghanistan is still up in the air — have to wait for their loya jirga to finish to have an idea where they're heading. CYBERAmazon

True. And there are those who are. Like Saudi Arabia for example which is seen as a beacon and point of reference for many muslims.

It is also based on previous US actions that have gone against the interests of the nations of that region. Memories do not fade (albeit after many many years and a after a radical improvement of relations).

And you should not forget the impact of Israel. It's creation but moreover its previous expansions to Egypt and Lebanon reflect directly on you. You can say that in the eyes of the muslims it is you who have commited these expansion. The reason is that US and Israel are considered "one". A logical even though too far fetched explanation IMO because of the american constant support to Israel.

	02-03-2002 02:26									#43
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In the Middle Ages before the European Rennaissance, Baghdad was one of the widely known intellectual cities.

While there were Catholic monastaries that contributed to preservation of ancient texts and knowledge, the Muslim cities of North Africa and the Middle East also preserved many of the ancient Greek and Roman texts. Just some reminders that Europe experienced intellectual growth in part from their own efforts, as well as contributions from the Muslim world.

And are we talking about Arabs or Muslims? There are Arabs who are not Muslim, and there are Muslims who are not Arabs.

In fact, I cannot remember which one, but either Indonesia, or Malaysia has the most populous Muslim population today in the world. Arabs are in the minority I believe, within the Muslim religion today.

	02-03-2002 02:39									#44
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I do believe its Indonesia, as they are majority muslim and have a hell of a lot more people than Malaysia.

	02-03-2002 02:42									#45
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There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, of which only 1/6 are Arabs. The most populous Arab country is Egypt with 60 million inhabitants. The most populous Islamic country is Indonesia with 230 million people, followed by Pakistan, India, and Iran.

Most Al-Qaedas are, however, Arabs.

During Middle Ages, Europeans played the role of the lunatic ignorant religious freaks that many Arabs are playing today.

	02-03-2002 02:47									#46
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Transcend, your last quote is nothing but a gross generalization about both groups of people.

European monks played an important role throughout the Middle Ages in preserving knowledge and intellectual texts. The same with Muslim intllectuals in that same historical era.

	02-03-2002 02:53									#47
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Indonesia has the biggest muslim population in the world, and is one of the 9 countries in which the poll was held. I won't call them "insignificant".

	02-03-2002 02:53									#48
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The United States is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't. We're hit on for supporting repressive regimes in the Middle East and we'll get bit in buttocks if we would ever actually try to overthrow the same regimes and replace them with more democratic regimes.


Your problem is that you see only these two options. You shouldn't try and violently overthrow the government of other countries, but you shouldn't sell weapons to governments that violently repress their people either.

	02-03-2002 02:55									#49
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quote: And are we talking about Arabs or Muslims? There are Arabs who are not Muslim, and there are Muslims who are not Arabs.

"Gallup poll: how muslims view the US".

	02-03-2002 02:57									#50
	Was the sample size big enough? Increase Your PM Length

9,924 adults??? That can not be correct. IIRC, even Nielson polls more people than that for thier surveys and they only deal with one country.

	02-03-2002 03:00									#51
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You've taken stats haven't you Dino? I thought the sandard sample size was a little over a thousand. That gives you the +- whatever % 19 times out of 20 comment at the bottom of the poll that nobody ever reads

	02-03-2002 03:02									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader You've taken stats haven't you Dino?

I'm taking it now. We haven't gotten that far yet. That's why I asked.

	02-03-2002 03:15									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Transcend, your last quote is nothing but a gross generalization about both groups of people.

Don't you understand sarcasm?

	02-03-2002 05:24									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Transcend Don't you understand sarcasm?

Oh -- well in that case, you should have used the rolling eyes smilie with your original sarcastic quote. I sometimes need visual aid to determine if it's sarcasm on Internet forums.

	02-03-2002 21:42									#55
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I expect Transcends do not feel obligated to pander to inferior intellects by posting visual aids, some old Romans also commonly omit winkies and roll-eyes; and those who can not comprehend without them be damned. If fact some of the more egotisctical of us might find it amusing to dertermine which posters are so feeble that they must be expressly alerted to common usages of communication.

	02-03-2002 22:31									#56
	Re: Re: Gallup poll: how muslims view the US Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by CYBERAmazon At least in the United States we have a representative government and an open and free media that actually investigates claims made by our leaders.

Thanks for that one. I notice your jokes are getting better over time.

	05-03-2002 08:30									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus A bit overly simplistic, don't you think?

Perhaps. I am not going to write a thesis on any subject at Apolyton; in order to do so, 'Poly will have to become an accredited educational institute. That way I would at least get academic credit for the work, if nothing else.

quote: Not all the arab/muslim nations have represive regimes, and there are democracies.

Really? Where folks can cast a vote for an individual who then goes on to represent them either in a House or Senate set-up? Or where voters can put some judicial officials in office? Which countries are these (I'm genuinely curious). The impression I currently have is that most, if not all, legislative and judicial branches of governments in the Arab world are "rubber stamp" entities for the dictatorial, ahem, monarch, er, EXECUTIVE branch of government.

I know Kuwait has something akin to democracy ... not sure how much of that was brought about by the resolution of the Persian Gulf war in 1990-91, though.

quote: Furthermore, Al Jazeera is a big free broadcasting network based in Qatar, and they aren't the only free and open media out there. It's true that Al Jazeera (and the BBC, CNN, etc) are banned in some arab/muslim countries, but certainly not in most.

Which nations ban Al Jazeera? I'm wondering if it's these same nations where I've seen examples of government and religious-sponsored media bashing of the United States.

CYBERAmazon

	05-03-2002 08:45									#58
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gallup poll: how muslims view the US Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 And you should not forget the impact of Israel. It's creation but moreover its previous expansions to Egypt and Lebanon reflect directly on you. You can say that in the eyes of the muslims it is you who have commited these expansion. The reason is that US and Israel are considered "one". A logical even though too far fetched explanation IMO because of the american constant support to Israel.

The U.S. was the first to recognize Israel, true. But we didn't out-and-out become their main "backers" until the late 1960s (and maybe later ... my history is foggy here, admittedly). Hell, there was even a time when we acted against Israel, France and Britain (when they tried to make a move against the Suez Canal in the 1950s). Speaking of France, weren't they Israel's main backer through the 1960s?

If the Arabs and Muslims have such long, detailed, memories, it sure is selective. Gee, how human, eh? They apparently forgot the events surrounding the Suez Canal, the fact that one of our ships was attacked by Israel and that former President Bill Clinton was fairly even-handed when it came to trying to forge permanent peace between the Palestinians and Israel. They forget that even today we have 800 or so U.S. peackeepers along the Israeli-Egyptian border (that we can't remove w/o said nations' approval). They forget that we tried to protect Muslims in the Balkans during Slobodan Milosevic's regime in the disintegrating Yugoslavia.

By no means am I saying that my nation is perfect; that state is unattainable in physical reality. But, by God, we aren't the Great Satan that we're also portrayed to be by some in the Middle East and elsewhere. We have our successes. We have our failures. We try to learn from both.

CYBERAmazon

	05-03-2002 08:55									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader The United States is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't. We're hit on for supporting repressive regimes in the Middle East and we'll get bit in buttocks if we would ever actually try to overthrow the same regimes and replace them with more democratic regimes. Your problem is that you see only these two options. You shouldn't try and violently overthrow the government of other countries, but you shouldn't sell weapons to governments that violently repress their people either.

Tell me: What would happen if the United States alone stopped selling weapons — defensive or offensive — to *any* nation that didn't use them appropriately?

Here's what I think would happen: We'd be cheered and then other governments would step up to the plate and pick up where we left off. I could live with that, but the point is this: it wouldn't solve the problem of governments that repress their citizens.

One of our statesmen once said that America should never entangle itself in the affairs of another nation, that we should only *trade* with them. Not a bad idea, IMHO. Now if only trade could be completely delinked from other aspects of country-to-country relationships. We could be the Switzerland of the world! All we wanna do is trade!

If only it were that simple.

CYBERAmazon

	05-03-2002 09:00									#60
	Re: Re: Re: Gallup poll: how muslims view the US Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Originally posted by CYBERAmazon At least in the United States we have a representative government and an open and free media that actually investigates claims made by our leaders. Thanks for that one. I notice your jokes are getting better over time.

Either contribute something meaningful to this thread or hold your silence, scavenger.

CYBERAmazon