27-02-2002 21:51									#1
	The Cradle Will Rock Put an end to popups!

There's something I miss here compared to the Civ2 and Civ3 forums, and that's more detailed debate about strategy. So many threads, even here on the "General/Strat" side, is about which mod to get. Vital info, but...there doesn't appear to be much strat discussion even in the old threads from a year ago.

So I thought I'd try to start something...

With the upcoming Succession Game(s) in mind, what are your favorite strategies for the first (say) 100 turns of Cradle? Let's use Locutus' suggestions (or make note where you strategy might differ with conditions you prefer):

*****
My preferences (but I'm very flexible):
* Regular Size Random Map (we don't want to drag the game out too long)
* setup of v1.11 patch and latest version of Cradle (v1.3)
* 6 opponents on Hard difficulty level with Raging Hordes (let's keep it easy for now)
* default settings for pollution, humidity, etc
*****

What tech path do you prefer to emphasize?
What initial build and expansion pattern?
How do *you* survive while getting established?
What government path?
What units do you love/hate/build/avoid?
What pattern of development (city & tile improvements, size) do you like for your cities?

I have my answers to these, but I'm basically a newbie at CTP2, so I don't think my strategies are very good yet. I had a *great* game yesterday. Built 2 spearmen to explore (no warriors avail). The Macedonians promoted one of them for me (gee, thanks!). Goody huts gave me a slinger and a warrior. The Carthaginians killed the slinger. I used the warrior to escort my newly-built settler. The Greeks killed both of them. Then a barbarian killed my other exploring spearman, and the Greeks, Macedonians, and Barbs showed up at the gates of my capital. Another civilization lost in the dust of history...

	27-02-2002 22:55									#2
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Continuing my tradition of replying to my own posts...

...I know there's the "topped" Cradle 1.2 thread, but that is now over 100 pages long and dates back to July. I'd like to discuss the state of the art!

	28-02-2002 04:14									#3
	Re: The Cradle Will Rock Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard There's something I miss here compared to the Civ2 and Civ3 forums, and that's more detailed debate about strategy. So many threads, even here on the "General/Strat" side, is about which mod to get. Vital info, but...there doesn't appear to be much strat discussion even in the old threads from a year ago.

I *SO* agree. Too bad I'm not much of a strategy buff myself, but I'll give it a go I used to play(test) a fair amount of MedMod, when it was still the best mod out there, so I'm very much used to MedMod strategies. I don't have much time to play Cradle now, so I'm still getting used to the details of it.

quote: What tech path do you prefer to emphasize?

Early on I usually go for better military hardware first (strong military is a necessity in Cradle) and for better governments after/next to that. Anything that boosts Science is my third priority, to try and keep up with the AI. Once the game gets going I really make it depend on the circumstances. If I can get along with the AIs, I go for whatever the AIs are not researching and trade (otherwise anything that helps in city and empire development); if I can't get along, I go for military hardware, happiness boosting stuff and better governments (i.e. higher city limits).

quote: What initial build and expansion pattern?

In the beginning very slowly, I build less settlers than I should, I think, depending more on goody huts, early conquest (I rarely attack size-1 cities, I need them too badly myself) and blocking off terrain from AI settlement until I can get settlers there myself. A weakness in my strategy that, if the map in not in my favor costs me dearly...

quote: How do *you* survive while getting established?

Minimal city defenders (just enough to scare off small/medium-sized enemy stacks) and building and maintaining one or two strong stacks that attack any Barb or enemy that wanders into my territory.

quote: What government path?

Don't play Cradle enough to know the early govs from the top of my head, so I can't really answer this one.

quote: What units do you love/hate/build/avoid?

Early on, I love ranged units (Slingers and Archers): 6 ranged units plus a bunch of regular melee units (6 in the stack plus a few replacements nearby to prevent my armies from weakening) can take on just about anything in the early phases of the game. So although I love ranged units most, I build tons of melee units to replace their damaged and killed comrades, they're just cannon fodder to me... I hardly ever use Cavarly and naval units in the early game, except for recon. Once they are available, bombarding units are a VERY important part of my military strategy. Once I have those, I rarely attack a city with more than 3 defenders in it anymore (and if there are more, they are heavily damaged), I complete pound it's defense until it's broken.

quote: What pattern of development (city & tile improvements, size) do you like for your cities?

In peace: science first, food second, production third, gold fourth, happiness whenever it's needed.
In war: production first, science second, gold third, food fourth, happiness whenever I'm near/over the city limit and the end of the war is not in sight.

	01-03-2002 12:15									#4
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Good reply!

Offhand, what you describe looks very similar to what I'm blundering along with in my current 1.3 game...though I wimped out on the difficulty level (Medium) *and* only one other AI civ was on the same small continent with me. He built half my cities for me ("Thanks! ").

	09-03-2002 04:25									#5
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I'm a glutton for punishment. 15 Civs, very hard, raging hordes, gigantic map, 50% water. I had maxplayer on 20 but the game kept crashing so I restarted after 390 turns and set mac player to 0 so it stays at 15.

Early startegy. Build up to 5 cities asap, go for projectile weapons and javelin cavalry, explore as much as possible, only 1 defender per city until after I hit the first barbarian in a goody hut. Max science always, PW 10, mainly for roads. Find the closest AI and wipe him out asap. Try to build pyramids or stonehenge(like to see the power graph jump)

Next stage. Build a few more cities, go for dynasty, code of hamurabi, find the next AI and destroy him, keep exploring, horseman, archers, mounted archers, hoplites, couple of happiness wonders, 3 defenders per city

Next stage. Legions, belfroi, spy, attack the 3rd AI, City state, Aristotle to keep up with AI in science, Olympics is very good for making war, gives you a decided edge in battles. Keep exploring, try to stay at peace with everyone except the current victim, even if they attack your explorers. Republic. PW 10-20, mines and farms.

Generally, build as many wonders as possible. Watch your science, plan ahead, have cities earmarked to start a wonder and have their production saved up and keep some units handy to disband to beat the AI. I used this 3 times to beat the AI, its worth it

Its now turn 306. The Romans, Babylonians and one other (Hittites I think) are gone, although they have restarted as someone else. The Han are on their Knees, although they have one city with walls on a hill and have Belfroi in the defense(thats going to be bloody, need Alexander, Hamarubi and Ceasar for that attack I think and be ready with the retreat button. Building Hagia and Mecca and saving Pompeii(production 350) for coliseum (3 turns)

	10-03-2002 21:25									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by stankarp I'm a glutton for punishment. 15 Civs, very hard, raging hordes, gigantic map, 50% water. I had maxplayer on 20 but the game kept crashing so I restarted after 390 turns and set mac player to 0 so it stays at 15.

stankarp: My understanding is that the max number of civs that are possible in CTP2 is 28 or 29. With your starting civs at 15 plus the maxplayer number set at 20, means that you could wind up having 35 civs in a game. This might expain why your game is crashing. I'm no expert on this though. Perhaps someone with better knowledge about this could verify whether this is true or not.

	11-03-2002 22:05									#7
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Stankarp,

Ah, now *that's* the sort of post I was looking for. Thanks!

Anyone else?

-- Hermann

	12-03-2002 18:55									#8
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quote: Originally posted by stankarp I had maxplayer on 20 but the game kept crashing so I restarted after 390 turns and set mac player to 0 so it stays at 15.

Actual you have only go back to a savegame before the crash and set MaxPlayers back to 0.

-Martin

	13-03-2002 13:25									#9
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Martin, I have tried that. I tried during the latter stages of the first game, then started the game again with maxplayer at 0. No difference, crashes every 2-5 times I try to manually save once i get up around 300 turns. Interestingly, autosave does not cause a crash.

Wonder if the answer lies there ?

	14-03-2002 12:58									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Back to stategy.

I had a curious thing happen. I was building up 4 stacks to attack a walled city in hills. The 4 stacks were 1 square away getting ready to attack when I accidentally left an archer on a road, 2 squares away. The defenders (8 units) moved out on the road, killed the archer, then MOVED OFF THE ROAD WHERE THE ARCHER WAS INTO A HILL SQUARE AFTER THE ATTACK. In other words, they moved an extra square after entering the square where they kiled the archer. I had the turn saved so i replayed it and the same thing happened.

Anyway, the defenders did move out when given an opportunity to kill soemthing and faced with overwhelming force. Happened another time and I ran them down and killed them. Saved a few casualties.

	15-03-2002 01:33									#11
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I don't think that's strategy; I think that's an "undocumented feature!"

	15-03-2002 04:02									#12
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Furthur strategy notes.

The AI will heavily reinforce a threatened front, and if not at war, leave rear cities lightly defended(funny, I noticed guys in gameleague do the same thing). I overran half the Roman Empire with 15 mounted units by bypassing the first two lines of cities, cutting the roads, then attacking the cities furthurest from my main army.

I was building up to attack a japanese city. I knew it was heavily defended because it had two catapults that kept hitting an egyptian stack that was outside. I decided to disperse one of my two stacks and sent some cavalry to try to circle round to find a soft target. Left one stack sitting 2 square away. 2 turns after I moved my 1 stack, several units(6-7) left the city by road heading towards a city that my cavalry were near. I waited 1 more turn, sent a horse archer to cut the road and moved up my remaining stack. Bingo, only 3 defenders

The computer doesnt respond to units it cannot legitimately see I believe. I snuck a stack of 12 towards a celtic city, then edvanced into the diagonal square, 2 squares away where I could not be seen. Next turn it advanced next to the city and a horse archer moved round to block the road. It was only then that my spy in the rear saw reinforcments start to move. The city was a rear one from the celtic front with the minoans and only had 1 defender.