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Darsnan
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New Syracuse, Beta Prime
Dec 2001
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
You don't think that children learn behavior from their parents then?? |
I agree with you 100% that children learn from their parents, both overtly and covertly, as well as learning from the environments that they are exposed to. I would also add that very little restrains them from exploiting this knowledge to its fullest. I will now expand upon this comment: my wife subscribes to the approach which you are suggesting of not spanking the children, and instead trying to rationalize with them as to what should be done in a certain situation. When she has exhausted every avenue of trying to convince our three children as to the correct thing to do, and it still has not been done, she turns to me for assistance. I then invoke The Voice, the one I use one step before the spankings begin. The problem is typically resolved at this point, otherwise it is escalated one more step.....
Regardless, it is my observation that the children (and not just mine - I observe this behavior in other children as well) are very astute at learning/ probing what they can and cannot do: they understand that my wife will not correct their behavior by physical means. They simply use this to their advantage. They also understand that I will not tolerate this, and they respond accordingly. Is this what leads to juvenile delinquents and adult criminals? Actually, I think to the contrary, it is a lack of discipline which leads to this: if children observe that they can "get away with it" for the cost of sitting thru a "rationalization of what is right", they will graduate to the juvenile level of "getting away with it" for the cost of the intermediate step of "rationalization of what is right" which is typically slaps on the wrists for petty crimes/ hooliganism. This learned/ reinforced behavior then graduates to adulthood where we see true crime attempted perpetrated.
My theory, anyways.
Regardless, a good video to see is "Bill Cosby: Himself". Early '80's fare when he was dealing with his rugrats. The caricatures he gives of his wife are hilarious! Give's a good education of what its like to deal with kids while giving a lot of laughs at the same time.
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Dr Strangelove
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My father usually used his belt, and sometimes branches. My mom usually used a paddle or a hair brush. I was so well disciplined that I would reply "Yes Sir!" to my older brothers. I wasn't what you would call a spontaneous child. I had a great deal of trouble relating to other children because I was constantly fearful of punishment when doing anything not specifically given prior approval by my parents.
I suppose there really is such a beast as too much of a good thing.
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- Groucho -
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
In my family, mum did most of the discipline, including smacking us - but we thought it was fun to drive her to the point of tears at dinner time so that was okay. My father hit us very little but if he did go off he'd nearly kill you. I was smart enough not to provoke him that much but my other brothers were dumb defiant bastards at times. |
Sounds like a pretty compelling argument that spanking is completely ineffective.
IMHO - spanking is done by parents who are too lazy/frustrated/tired/unimaginative/whatever to think of a way of disciplining their child without resorting to hitting them. Go ahead and hit your kids, Horse. Just don't be too surprised when they take your little power play lessons to heart and grow up to be kids who think its fun to drive their mother to the edge of tears.
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connorkimbro
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Seoul Korea
Jan 1970
time: 23:17
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I was, not to a great extent, but somewhat, physically abused by my father as a child. I also witnessed my younger brother and mother being physically abused. Again, not to some extreme extent, not as badly as many others had/have it, but it was there.
That being said, I support a MODERATE amount of physical punishment with the following stipulations
1. One thing that changes physical punishment into abuse is anger. Therefore never EVER EVER hit your kids when you are angry at them. Take 10 minutes, take a few hours, take however long you need to cool off before spanking.
2. Explain to them the reason why you are spanking them. Even to small children. They need to connect the punishment with the action. The need to understand that the ONLY reason they're being punished is because they did a particular thing wrong.
*exceptions to rule 1 and 2. if you see your kid about to do something that will injure/maim/kill themselves or someone else, then a quick smack is OF COURSE entirely appropriate, along with an IMMEDIATE explanition of why. This should be done in a LOVING/CONCERNED manner, NOT an angry one.
3. If you punish when your kid does wrong, reward when he/she does right. Or just randomly, not necessarily for any specific thing. Just to let them know that you approve of THEM as a person, and that you love them.
4. In case you were just skimming, and not reading, I'll say it again. LET THEM KNOW THAT YOU LOVE THEM. And do just say it. Do it.
5. When kids are young, THEY are the center of their own universe. To them, their needs are most important. They might want to do something. If you make the desire NOT to be spanked greater than the desire to misbehave, then that discourages misbehavior. If you don't then, like someone else pointed out, they'll know that they can get away with it. A child that young isn't going to be able to comprehend any abstract sense of morals, or reasons WHY certain things shouldn't be done. What is it to them? THEY are the most important person in their universe, after all. Mommy, Daddy, Brother, Sister, Friend. . . all of THOSE things exist FOR that child, in that child's mind.
thus. . .
6. Once a child is out of that psychology, and able to consider others as equal to himself, and are able to reason things out which are right and wrong, THEN I personally advocate switching to alternate forms of punishment. Continuing spanking at that age discourages growth, as it is merely a continuance of being treated like a child. If, however, you instead utilize the "time out" rules or "being ground" along with reasons why you're punishing them AND reasons why what they did is wrong, that encourages and promotes growth. It gets them to rationally understand, and enables them to start thinking about whats right and wrong. IF YOU CONTINUE physical punishment past this point, they will only get more and more clever at evading being caught. If you explain why things are wrong, then they'll hopefully start to make correct decisions on their own.
I'm not a parent yet, but I personally think that this is pretty damn good parental philosophy, and it's the one i'll approach parenting with.
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28-02-2002 07:00
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