28-02-2002 03:46									#1
	Big Huge Games: Rise of Nations Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

http://gamespot.com/gamespot/storie...2850780,00.html

Wow, all that work for a game a lot like Empire Earth, which was a lot like Age of Empires, which was a lot like Warcraft.
Sure they've come up with some interesting ideas, but nothing that hasnt been said on fansite nessage boards.

Its just another RTS in a long line of them, not the end all, be all, great idea they claimed they had when they left firaxis. Oh well.

	28-02-2002 03:50									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

as long as bas makes his own civ game, like Civilisation: Brian Reinolds is god

like Civ:CTP but a proper game

	28-02-2002 03:53									#3
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This'll get moved. Apolyton has a BHG forum.

But having seen the screenshots, it does look tremendously like AoK Only throughout all the ages.

I really hope this works, cos I can see lots of potential to come really close to greatness, but flop in SP like Cossacks did.

	28-02-2002 04:05									#4
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Yeah, I was hoping for more Civ and less RTS, especially from Brian since all of the changes he made from CivII and SMAC were great.

	28-02-2002 04:11									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat This'll get moved. Apolyton has a BHG forum.

Well, Apolyton has CtP1/2 forums too, nevertheless there were several threads here.

	28-02-2002 04:19									#6
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This game does sound great, but like IW I hope it isn't too much like AoK.

	28-02-2002 04:35									#7
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The interface looks exactly like AoK. But this here screenie does look dope!



The hills in the other screenies do look very very nice too.

-FMK.

	28-02-2002 04:42									#8
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Don't get me wrong I think that the graphics look awesome, but I hope that the gameplay isn't a lot like AoK.

	28-02-2002 04:47									#9
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Those ships are in the Spanish ancient age? I wonder what monsters they will have in the modern age?!

	28-02-2002 05:16									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Oh....if only civ3 could have looked like that....would it have been THAT hard?

	28-02-2002 05:22									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Those ships are in the Spanish ancient age? I wonder what monsters they will have in the modern age?!

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.
Maybe they made the screenie with a cheat mode whilst still in the ancient era?

Wait a minute, they must have. Note that the Red 'Civ' doesnt seem to have any land on the coast. Must be a quick mock up, methinks.

-FMK.

	28-02-2002 06:10									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Looks like another AOK clone to me. I hope they try to add some sort of innovation, instead of just more Rock-Paper-Scissors. However with the note that musketeers are "strong against heavy foot", looks like just more Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Curse you AOK! Developers, quit copying AOK!

I also think it is a little hopeless to try to make a game that will please both RTS and TBS players. Some people enjoy both, but die-hard RTS people won't have the patience for TBS elements, and die-hard TBS people won't have the speed for RTS elements.

Just how I see it, of course.

	28-02-2002 08:46									#13
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this game looks identical to Empire Earth

	28-02-2002 09:33									#14
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I don’t think that Brian Reynolds would start his own company with a AOE clone. He would be spelling death to his plans if he would do it.

From what I could see, it seems that they are going for a hybrid approach. Some elements would be essentially TBS (empire management) and others would be RTS (combat on a tactical level). In fact, this is what BR himself seems to indicate:

quote:

"It's not so much that we've taken real-time strategy and jammed the kitchen sink into it. We looked at real-time strategy and took what we thought were the really fun things."



I’m sure that BR can bring new ideas and features to an already exhausted genre. So far, I like the graphics, and some of the ideas seem pretty interesting. Of course, as Yin said, the devil is in the details, and I would have to play the game to see how it performs.

But one thing reveals a good sign of things to come: the game, as it is now, seems playable, and won’t be released until 2003, which means that the development team will have probably an entire year to fine tune it. And this means a game with fewer bugs and properly finished.

Sure, I never liked RTS games. Maybe I’ll give Rise of Nations a try. We’ll see.

	28-02-2002 10:54									#15
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Age of the Rise of Empire Nations

Maybe CivII and SMAC were just flukes?

	28-02-2002 17:18									#16
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Ok, now I'm worried.

This is from the official Microsoft site about RoN (you can check it on the Miscellaneous page here at 'Poly):

quote: Designed with the casual audience in mind, gamers will be able to move through the game timeline quickly and have a satisfying game experience without playing for hours.

"Casual audience"? "Move through the game quickly"? I know that RTSs are not known for its strategic depth, but this is not promising at all... On the RoN section at the BHG site, someone talks about "streamlined gameplay" or something like that. Seems like hardcore strat gamers will be disappointed once again. Yeah, I know, RoN is RTS, one cannot expect strategic depth from an RTS blah blah blah... But I was confident that BR could bring new life and intelligence to this genre. I cannot judge the game, of course, and I'll have to wait and see, but...

... this "casual audience" thing is a big huge letdown to me.

	28-02-2002 18:16									#17
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Well my reaction was based on the near identical screens compared to AOK. In case you have not seen AOK, they look ... well, identical.

It looks like they added a "Chase Villagers" order (just guessing by the new button picture). That will be a nice feature, but hardly innovative.

I really think AOK hurt the genre by solidifying the Rock-Paper-Scissors thing too much. Somehow in Starcraft those relations were not so boring and straightforward. The tutorial in Empire Earth beated you over the head with it, and now the units in Rise of Nations tell you the relation every time they are selected ... enough already! I know the average RTS player is only like 12, but I think even the slower members of the audiance got it!

If your game boils down so simply to Rock-Paper-Scissors, thats not a good sign.

Anyway, the young age and inevitable dominance of rushing leads to the "casual audiance" and "move through the game quickly" part, I think.

To my experience all RTS eventually reach the point where only a rush with the earliest unit is feasible. So if you play, cut straight to the point! Ignore the tech tree and just rush with the earliest unit!

Ok I'm ranting, sorry, I'll stop.

	28-02-2002 20:06									#18
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Personally, I hate RTS. It's too rushed, there's little strategy - tactics yes but strategy no. RTS games are not mentally challenging, they're just a way to amuse yourself "without playing for hours", like Donkey Kong.

However, I will be buying this game. I think there is real promise in the way BR and the posse tried to take TBS aspects and put them in real time. The research (concentrating in military, commerce or science), the diplomacy (alliances more like NATO and less like a CIV3 MPP). They realize that CIV3 in real time could also be called a heart attack for $39.99 so they had to simplify. Alot of things, like the smart peasants, are automated. If this is what they mean by streamlined gameplay then good.

	28-02-2002 20:12									#19
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Not another RTS that is a clone on AoK! Sux!

	28-02-2002 20:20									#20
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Well, I wasn't ever impressed with Brian's originality. Look at Civ2: hardly any new concepts over Civ1. Just more micro-management!

I can understand him wanting to get away from Sid, but I think his new company will flop. He's a coder, not a thinker.

If you don't have any new ideas, there's not much point setting up a company. Unless you can build things better/faster/cheaper.

	28-02-2002 20:27									#21
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The graphics look good, but based on our limited information, it's too early for me to say one way or the other whether I'll like it....still, it does have a kinna "been there, done that" look and feel to it....dunno....

-=Vel=-

	28-02-2002 22:24									#22
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With BR behind it, it will succeed nonetheless. I sincerely hope it is the TBS/RTS hybrid I've been longing for for years.

Dave

	28-02-2002 23:39									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Oh goody, another RTS game. Just what the industry needs.

If BR wants to add TBS elements to RoN, he had better grab a copy of Kohan and see how its really done. That game comes close to actually having TBS elements.

This game looks to be nothing more than another hack job on the AoK engine. It might please the RTS audience, but that is not saying too much. I wonder if Microsoft forced the AoK developers to give BR the code for AoK. If they are going to clone AoK at least change the color of the interface.

I think I will pull a Yin and declare this game to be horrible before it's even finished. Better yet, I will say that all who will declare RoN to be good or fun are just "too easily pleased".

-Hrnac

	28-02-2002 23:54									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

What? ANOTHER pump-out-units-to-conquer-the-world RTS click fest? I think I'll keep my $50.

	28-02-2002 23:55									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This game does look alot like AoK or Empire Earth. But if it's so similar to those games, I'm also wondering why it won't be coming out until 2003, and they've got like 30+ people of their staff. I know play-balancing takes a while, but a whole year?

	28-02-2002 23:59									#26
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I read this article on Gamespot yesterday as was hardly excited about the game, which in both description and screen shots looks a whole lot more like Empire Earth redux than anything resembling Civ or SMAC. Brian Reynolds reiterated that this was a game a casual player could sit down with and play for an hour--hardly seems likely to have Civlike complexity. I've enjoyed playing RTS games at times (including EE), but I prefer games like Civ, and really do not think that the RTS genre can support a game as complex as Civ--it is just too much for the player to do in real time. (Except in a game like EU, which although billed as a real time game, has little, if anything, in common with what gamers have in mind when they use the term RTS.)

	01-03-2002 08:32									#27
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave With BR behind it, it will succeed nonetheless. I sincerely hope it is the TBS/RTS hybrid I've been longing for for years. Dave

try Kohan: the immortal sovereings; Nation will have a hard time making a RTS a more TBS than this one.

	01-03-2002 13:52									#28
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I hope that it is not a aok clone, but most likely will be. Every rts game microsoft publishes is a aok clone, I am assumming microsoft is going to publish this game.

I am sure not going to buy this game untill I can play a demo first, I dont want to waste $40 to $50 on aok clone.

	05-03-2002 05:42									#29
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Hi Guys!

A couple of comments from things in the thread--

Our combat system is not just a rock/paper/scissors game, though we do include this concept of units having strengths and weaknesses relative to each other (it's actually one of the things that works against the "rush" tactic--which tactic we also allow you to control with game settings). At least equally strong in our game is the value of attacking from the flank and the value of holding the high ground.

So for example a line of pikes will protect your muskets from a cavalry charge, but if the cav gets in your rear watch out.

Brian

p.s. You're right, we don't plan to start our company with an AOE clone :-)

	06-03-2002 04:01									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Brian Reynolds Hi Guys! A couple of comments from things in the thread-- Our combat system is not just a rock/paper/scissors game, though we do include this concept of units having strengths and weaknesses relative to each other (it's actually one of the things that works against the "rush" tactic--which tactic we also allow you to control with game settings). At least equally strong in our game is the value of attacking from the flank and the value of holding the high ground. So for example a line of pikes will protect your muskets from a cavalry charge, but if the cav gets in your rear watch out. Brian p.s. You're right, we don't plan to start our company with an AOE clone :-)

That is very good to hear. I dont know why microsoft though put so many games out that are clones of AOE, all they do is change the unit pics and names and release it. Dont get it. Anyways enough about AOE. I am glad that rushing will be limited in the game. In too many rts all I see people do is rush, rush, rush, and rush all day long. Get old fast and you cant really enjoy the game. With multiplayer games will be able to controll how fast ages go by, so if you want a game to last a while you can slow it down, but if you want a quick game you can speed it up?