28-02-2002 19:50									#1
	How win tech race in 1.17? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I am playing at warlord level and in first 1.17 game. What a change from 1.16. I used to be 1-4 techs ahead, now I am barely even or 1 behind.

This is NOT tech trading between AI's. To eliminate AI trading and to see the difference in the tech race present game is with just one other civ, aztec.


Any ideas on how to pull ahead in the tech race in 1.17?

Oh, other change. Now other civ has gold whereas before they were always short of cash.

	28-02-2002 20:33									#2
	Re: How win tech race in 1.17? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by planetfall Oh, other change. Now other civ has gold whereas before they were always short of cash.

Really? I noticed that the AI never has cash anymore....But I play on Monarch, maybe that's the difference...

	28-02-2002 21:19									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

On Monarch with 1.17, the AI is dead broke until at least the middle ages, but then it starts to build up a cash surplus... I've seen AI civs with around 1000 gold. That didn't last, but they did actually amass that much money.

Planetfall,

The way that I jumpstart my tech is building the Great Library. Since I play on Monarch, I'm usually way behind in the ancient era (sometimes WAY behind) until the GL is done. Then I pick up a ton of techs. Then I concentrate on my economy. #1 beeline is for literature for the GL, then for currency. Cities (those that aren't terribly corrupt) build a defender, a temple, maybe a worker or two, a library, and a marketplace in the ancient era. My military is paper thin at this point. Once my core cities all have libraries and marketplaces, and have grown in size, I can usually keep up and even eek ahead by a tech or two. Holding that lead is very hard with 1.17, due to the tech trading.

Here is your main problem, I think: Tech devaluation. The "value" of a tech is calculated based upon how many civs know it. If no one knows currency, for instance, it retains its full "value" both in terms of how many beakers required to research it, and how much it's worth in a trade. HOWEVER, if 1 out of 2 (in your case) civs know it, that's a 50% reduction in value. Therefore if you, or the Aztecs, discover a tech, the cost of researching that tech immediated drops by half. Thus, holding a tech lead is gonna be awfully hard, even on warlord.

-Arrian

	28-02-2002 21:27									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Arrian,

Tech Devaluation sucks! I presume this is not adjustable in the editor.

Sounds like I need a change in strategy and run 1 behind and then buy cheaper. I'm only to the start of industrial age. I will change strategies and see what effect that has on the game.

Thanks for the useful information.

Too bad we can't store beakers so we can jump on the one we really want.

	28-02-2002 21:40									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Planetfall,

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the current tech devaluation. I think that tech should lose value as more and more civs know it, but not as drastically as now. There should also be a minimum, a "floor" for how much a tech costs.

If I understand what Soren said about tech devaluation correctly, eliminating a civ makes it worse. If you start with 8 civs, 2 civs knowing a tech drops the cost by 2/8 - 25%. But if two civs have been wiped out, then it's 2/6 - 33.3%. It may be better to keep using the original number of civs in the game as the base number - so it's always a fraction of 8 (or 12, or 16).

Good luck, btw.

-Arrian

	28-02-2002 22:02									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Ah, then this is why the new 1.17 AI does not kill other civs but leaves 1-6 weak cities around-- to maintain advantage in its tech lead and increase the cost to the human.

	28-02-2002 22:28									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Nice. Too many cities for my own...

	28-02-2002 22:29									#8
	Tired of ads?

ups, mistake

	01-03-2002 22:47									#9
	Identical tech path for AI? Enter the AD-FREE zone

Started new game and now noticing for required techs the AI's always research the same ones I do. They never seem to have any required ones I don't and I never have any to offer as a trade.

Is this just me or are others finding a change in the number of techs available for trade after 1.17?

{my tech path is not even from left to right but will buy high one or two branches and then backfill the rest later.} I can'timagine how the AI would naturally choose the same path I do.

So, is there a third factor in dealing with the tech race:
1- faster AI trading of techs between themselves,
2- tech devaluation, and now
3- AI mirrors human tech development plan?

What has been your game experience?

	02-03-2002 00:48									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well, sometimes it seems to be that the AI researches the same stuff, but I have had many occasions where they research one way, and I the other. This divergence is usually most pronounced in the industrial age.

I have a set patch through the Industrial techs:

Steam Power, Industrialization, (buy nationalism), medicine, electricity, scientific method, atomic theory, electronics, replaceable parts, and then I click on motorized transport.

The AI will research communism, sanitation and espionage, and will get nationalism via trade (just like me) from a scientific civ that got it for free.

I actually managed to pull away by 4-5 techs last night, and got Tanks before the AI got infantry. Not much before, but I captured half of the Roman Empire before they started fielding infantry. The momentum is unstoppable now.

-Arrian

	02-03-2002 00:56									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Huh, maybe it was just in the ancient era,
middle is just starting. I will let you know
if it follows in later eras. That is if I can find iron. Rome and no iron == no joy.

	02-03-2002 01:16									#12
	Tech path in Ind age Enter the AD-FREE zone

ArrianIt sounds like your tech path would work, but would be a bit boring for me as it is all land forces. The AI has a real hard time with navy. It can handle some air and land combo, but put all three together and invasion is unstoppable.


My set path in IA is
1. steam
2. indust
3. elect
4. replaceable parts
{now I have a defense until the rest
is built}
5. medicine
6. sanitation
7. nationalism
8. communism
{modified police station to reduce
corruption}
9. corp
10. steel
11. refining
12. combustion
{start of modern navy. need to
start early as takes time to get
units in position}
13. mass production
{here's the rest of the navy}
14. flight
{now Air, quicker to deploy}
15. sci method
16. atomic
17. electronics
18. motorized transport
{clean up units coming}

Modern is rest of power
1. fusion
2. ecology
3. rocketry {sams}
4. space {tactical nuke}
5. satellites {nukes}
6. syn fibers {modern armor}
7. stealth {bomber to take out sams}

who cares about the rest? end game time.

	02-03-2002 01:39									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Planetfall,

First off, Firaxis already added "reduces corruption" to police stations.

Second, my tech path is designed to do two things: get Theory of Evolution and get Hoover. Especially now that ToE works like CivII's Darwin (you can choose the techs it gives you), it's really important to me. ToE gives me Atomic Theory and Electronics. Then Rep. Parts so I have infantry to fend off any silly AI's until I have Tanks. With factories & hoover, I can crank out tanks in 2 turns from my core cities. I build a LOT of Tanks, even if I don't necessarily plan to use them. I want them around, just in case. After all, they upgrade to Modern Armor for 20gold each I sometimes delay flight (if I have the Colossus). Bombers are good, I build 20 or so of those.... and I might build more this time around b/c they weakened bombardment in 1.17.

I do get around to building a navy, but usually don't bother until I have established control over my continent, or at least the part I want. Then I start building Battleships. Lots and lots of Battleships. I have on occasion gone overboard with that... I had one game (keep in mind this is on a normal size map) where I had over 40 Battleships.

Modern Age tech choice depends on which victory condition I want to go for. I always start w/Computers. Then it depends on how close the AI is to me... if they're right with me, I'll go for Fission to make sure I get the UN. If not, I will go for Ecology first. After that... like I said, it depends. Synth. Fibers if I want a Domination win, the various SS techs if I want to win via SS launch.

-Arrian

p.s. By the way, I know my tech path is land based. In my opinion, that's the most important part, because with RR's, mobile defense vs. invasion is easy. So getting the good ground forces first makes me invulnerable to assault (or securing hegemony over my continent), and then I can set about preparing to do damage to someone across the ocean.

	02-03-2002 02:05									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You're right. PS did not require a edit with 1.17.

I have been only playing up to warlord so far. It does sound much better to get tanks faster in the tech race. {Defense and then offense is the way of the NFL and this game}
Thank you for making me rethink my tech order.


Why hoover? I would think nuclear plants higher production level vs hydro would pay off quickly.

	02-03-2002 02:15									#15
	Nuclear Plants vs. Hoover Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Planetfall,

Three reasons:

1) Hoover provides a free hydro plant in every city on the continent, whereas you must build all those nuc. plants from scratch, and pay upkeep.

2) Hoover comes much earlier (my way) than fission

3) Nuc. plants can explode if your city goes into disorder.

I will build a few Nuclear plants in my highest production cities once I have the tech, but in general they aren't really necessary... and I'm wary of the meltdown ever since Persopolis blew up due to war weariness 1 turn before I won (my first ever Monarch win). I still won, no problem, but I was annoyed.

-Arrian

	02-03-2002 02:33									#16
	Support Apolyton

Huh, but hydro must be by water, so not every city on continent.

"blow up" -- deselect in editor, French have had nuclear power plants for decades without a blowup.

You're right hoover comes earlier. Before I learned, since they were on the build menu, I started with coal, and then cleaned up hydro and then expanded power with nuclear. I thought the power was additive. Wish I could just take coal power off the build menu option. I'd rather wait in most cases than deal with the pollution.

Have some good games this weekend.

later

	02-03-2002 02:42									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Planetfall,

The Hoover Dam Great Wonder gives you a hydro plant in every continental city, river or no (I'm 99% sure of this).

I don't edit the game. I may later, once they're done patching it, but for now at least, I play it with default settings. Besides, in this case, it makes sense that such a great production booster (nuclear plant) has a potential downside (meltdown), whether or not France has ever had one.

I never build coal plants. Not worth it. If all goes well, I will have Hoover built pretty soon after the rest of my cities have built their factories. Even without the nasty pollution, they would be obselete (by the hydro plants) too quick to be worth building.

Have a good weekend too

-Arrian