01-03-2002 14:51									#1
	Civiliza - work continues Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

After another much needed break from Civiliza, I'm back to get a lot of coding done. My schedule is much more full now however, and progress will not be as rapid as it was before.

That doesn't mean I don't have big plans. I'm hoping to really impress some people with demo 5.

Until then, here's an another update to Civilza - 4d

The following changes/additions have been made since the last release:

-Added city names. They don't center perfectly yet, and they
are fixed names based on city number, but hey at least they are in.
-Fixed dissapearing unit bug (temporary disabling right-side
unit clipping).
-Decreased amount of damage that walls protect against.
-Fixed bug where city names would not be saved properly.


You can either
1) Full install 4b, then update to 4c, then update to 4d.

or

2) Full install 4d.

download at http://www.geocities.com/dexter4dxm/

	02-03-2002 00:05									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hi, Dexter. I'm happy to hear you're still working on Civiliza. I'll try it out when I'm not on a Mac...

My own project is dead; I got Civ3 and CTP2 (and EU2) for Christmas and lost track of what my vision was. I'd say, though, that it would be a combination of 1) simplicity (rather than having "governors," I'd prefer that there actually be fewer things to be done with individual cities... for instance, how you don't place a city's workers, in CTP2) and 2) diplomatically active and dynamic AI players (I kind of liked Civ3 here).

So that's my last two cents, I think.

Miznia

	03-03-2002 07:11									#3
	Got spare money?

miznia: sorry to hear your project is no more. i hope you can stick around and offer ideas.


everyone: i could use some help with the project. i've got a good idea of where i'm heading with this, but i think i'm going to be missing some details along the way. i'd like to hear any ideas or comments about the game. i have diplomacy and peice sliding on the wanted list, but i need more. i wasn't kidding about trying to make demo 5 impressive. i want to pack tons of good working features into it, and make it complete as a game. in fact, it won't even be called demo 5, and it won't be called civiliza either (if you have a good idea for a name, i'm listening )

so if u have some extra time and you'd like to help out, i'd appreciate any input.

	04-03-2002 21:05									#4
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Dex, I would quite like to help out. I can't programme but I'd quite like to help out with regards to the interface and customisation (text files etc.), along with doing general stuff.

	04-03-2002 22:12									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

look on civ 4 the list 4 ideas
here are some from me:
civil wars
smac like diplo, friends and pacts and stuff, but sort of like civ3s, variety on bargains
pretty good ai, look at cevo, i think theirs is good
MAD
some way of having no workers
good tech tree
exiting rewards

names:
civilisation
something with history, or empire

tishco

	05-03-2002 04:30									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Chris Wilkinson Dex, I would quite like to help out. I can't programme but I'd quite like to help out with regards to the interface and customisation (text files etc.), along with doing general stuff.

i would very much appreciate your assistance. i'm not even looking for help with the actual coding, just help designing and fixing the game.

i consider the interface one of the most important parts of the project, and although i have some guidelines as to what it can consist of, i'm pretty open to ideas. basically i want to keep it as simple and un-cluttered as possible, while still providing enough functionality. the more of the map the user can view, the better. right now there is nearly nothing blocking the view of the map, and i would like to keep it that way if i can. a few questions this brings up:

1) mini-map. should there be a small map in the corner like in civ3 or a full screen map the user can bring up, or both? also, if we are going to have a small mini-map i suggest being able to toggle it on and off.

2) general layout of the main map view. how does the current structure look? (resources listed on top left going to right. logo on top right, population bottom left, year and public works points on bottom right and messages on bottom middle). if you ask me, i like how the small bars don't restrict the view of the map and still provide all the information the player needs.

3) main map interface buttons. should there be small buttons the user can click on to perform any actions the unit has (such as settler building a city or any combat unit fortifying itslef). i say no. i mean does anyone actually take the time to bring the mouse all the way down to use those buttons every time they need a unit to do something? maybe newbies, but they should learn how to play the game the way it is meant to be played anyways, and speaking of which, one of my early design rules was to limit the amount of switching between use of the keyboard and use of the mouse, if not just limiting the use of the mouse altogether. my suggestion is to do away with any interface buttons and use hot-keys for everything (we will need a help page refering to the keys).

4) current unit info. should there be a box that has all the info about the currently selected unit, like in civ3? not much to say about this one. i'm not even sure if it is a good idea or not. if we do decide it is necessary though, i want to at least make so you can toggle it on and off.

that's about it for the main map interface for now. most of the help i will need will be for the various menus and windows that pop up. i don't know where to start on those, so feel free to start some discussions

now as for the editable text files, are you offering to help me with the structure of the files, or the actual editing of the values in them in order to balance/improve the gameplay? i hope it is the latter of the two because i could really use the help there.

thanks for any help

	05-03-2002 04:55									#7
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by tishco look on civ 4 the list 4 ideas

not a bad idea, i hadn't thought of that. i should even take a look at older lists and discussions

quote: civil wars

already part of the plans. this one is a little bit tricky, because it will be hard to play-test the historical accuracy of it (how often do civil wars actually happen anyways?). i would like civil wars to be handled in a similar way to civ3 (well, actually i have never seen a civil war in civ3 - i'm going by what i've read), in that the cities that are the most currupt will break off into the new nation. the problem with this is that you are likely to end up with a core of friendly cities, and a cirlcle of rebel cities surrounding you. this is not how it should be - the rebel cities should be grouped together somewhat.

quote: smac like diplo, friends and pacts and stuff, but sort of like civ3s, variety on bargains

i am not very familiar with smac, although i have played it (for like 10 min or so...). i would like to strike a balance between civ2 and civ3 on this one. i'm actually doing the coding for the diplomacy right now, so we can discuss this further soon.

quote: pretty good ai, look at cevo, i think theirs is good

i haven't got a chance to fool around with cevo, mostly because it is not featured here in these forums and i like checking out the projects of the developers who are here. btw, does cevo have diplomacy yet?

quote: MAD

this has been planned from the beginning, i wouldn't worry about it.

quote: some way of having no workers

already took care of that

quote: good tech tree exiting rewards

going to need help with these two. not only will there be rewards but there will be disasters to.

quote: names: civilisation something with history, or empire

i still haven't come up with many ideas. so far "global conflict" is all i've come up with, and let's not kid each other - conflict is what this game is all about (and every other civ game i've played in depth so far)

thanks for the input, tischo, keep the ideas coming

	05-03-2002 06:18									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

i wasn't going to release anything until version 1.0, but if i'm going to have people helping me with this thing i will probably be better off making releases as we go. that way we can discuss everything freely and make changes from testing.

if i can get commited help from only a few people it would be worth it; on the other hand, making weekly builds for no one seems rather silly.

what do you think? open beta testing?

	05-03-2002 21:30									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

cevo has diplo now, like civ3s only better, all it needs is resorses, and maybe better rewards and it beats civ 3

smac has pacts, surrenders, and telling others to do stuff, "attack so and so, and lets attack this city" or you take this city and i'll take this 1"

like moo2 i suppose, if you've played it

	05-03-2002 21:34									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I've had a few ideas about the interface...I'll try and get some examples done asap.

	06-03-2002 02:26									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by tishco cevo has diplo now, like civ3s only better, all it needs is resorses, and maybe better rewards and it beats civ 3 smac has pacts, surrenders, and telling others to do stuff, "attack so and so, and lets attack this city" or you take this city and i'll take this 1" like moo2 i suppose, if you've played it

moo2 was a great game, it just had horrible multiplayer (well, hotseat was okay i guess...) and too much micromanagement at the latter stages of the game (just like civ2 and civ3). moo2 had a pretty good diplomacy system, however it is a little too straightforward and limited.
as for cevo, i'm going to have to download it and check it out.
i like what you are saying about smac. i would like to add similar options one day.

to be honest, i just about prefer civ2's diplomacy over civ3's. i think it is great how you can mix and match trades in civ3, but it really lost its personal touch with the agreements.

	06-03-2002 23:33									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

Here's an example dialog box...it's quite a simple, plain design but it looks good IMO and games sometimes tend to go OTT trying to make things too snazzy...

Attachment: dialog.gif
This has been downloaded 189 time(s).

	07-03-2002 02:01									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

good design of the popup
but a sugestion is 2 have a news screen like champ man (as much as i hate it)

the civ3 diplomacy ai is stupid and impersonal, i agree, it doesnt even have a tone of voice control thing

	07-03-2002 06:47									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

i like it too. i don't know how to do in-game translucency yet, but that can be adjusted later.

	07-03-2002 14:23									#15
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I don't know how you want to store the graphics required for the interface but I'll chop it up anyway and send it to you. I've had some ideas for menus etc., I'll get an example of them posted soon.

	08-03-2002 05:06									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

i only know a few of the required menu items so far, but i would like to see whatever design you can come up with.


anyways, like i said before, i have been working on diplomacy (finally! ). here's a one of the pop-ups i'm using:

Attachment: declareswar.jpg
This has been downloaded 238 time(s).

	08-03-2002 05:50									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

so much for 'global conflict'

http://www.games4charity.org/gc.htm

i was just about to use that name for the first beta release...

	08-03-2002 08:39									#18
	Remove this text

Good news, I'm releasing Beta 1 soon, probably within a day or two. There are some oddities due to the drastic changes Civiliza has gone through in the past week, but the game is very playable and I want to get it out for testing early. I just need to go over a few more things, pick a name, and prep it for release.
I'll have a full list of changes when it comes out, but here's basically what's new:

NEW! - City improvement auto-building (toggled in city window)

NEW! - Diplomacy! On a basic level now, but it's finally here.

NEW! - Higher resolutions! That's right! Civiliza now runs in four resolutions: 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768 and even 1600x1200!

	10-03-2002 05:47									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If I can make the AI players do something constructive by sending their un-used military units to the border and then sentrying them ( instead of just randomly moving like in civ3 ), I will most likely have no problem making bigger map sizes and doubling the amount of players in the game.

How about this: if the AI player is not at war with anyone, he will sentry his units along the border with the closest neighbor he dislikes, and if he likes all his neighbors he will sentry his units in his own cities. Then, once war is declared, all the units become unsentried. Actually, the sentry command will act like 'fortify' in this case, and those units' turns will be skipped. This way almost all moves the AI players will have to make will be military related, and only during times of war.

	10-03-2002 22:18									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I like the idea of condemning people. I hate not being able to condemn people in civ.

	11-03-2002 09:31									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

i know what you mean darkknight, i always felt the civ series lacked in that kind of thing

	11-03-2002 15:19									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

i've changed my mind, i will do another demo release of civiliza with this new stuff. and btw, i meant quadrupling the amount of players, not doubling it. my mistake.

it takes a lot longer with 31 AI players, but it works, so why not have that be an option?

	14-03-2002 07:24									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hey there dex. Well, I tried demo 4d and got a Navajo blanket pattern in pink and black with a few random bits of actual terrain thrown in near the settler or whoever he was. At a guess this is because I'm not at 640x40x16. Since I don't like changing resolutions (messes up my icon positions on the desktop in win 98) I guess I'll wait for D5...

Looking forward to it!

	16-03-2002 12:56									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Mark, I have seen this problem in the past. I don't think it's a problem with it being in 640x480, but maybe the 16 bit color depth. Are you using a Win '98 system?

	16-03-2002 22:59									#25
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Hi Dex, yeah its win98. I tried changing colors to 16 but my video card and / or win98 wouldn't let me go down to 16 without changing the resolution down to 640x480.

	17-03-2002 08:08									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

changes to desktop resolution size or color depth should not make any difference. civiliza changes to full-screen mode, sets the resolution to 640x480x16, and sets it back to your desktop resolution when you exit civiliza or when you press alt-tab. if your video card doesn't support that resolution, civiliza will give a display error and exit, so since you got to the game ok i don't think that's the problem. i believe the problem lies within the images themselves. I have not identified the fix for this yet, but I have dealt with this in the past and I know there is a work-around. I will try to get access to a Win '98 system soon and figure this out, thanks for reporting

	18-03-2002 02:17									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

i am still close to finishing the next release, but i'm working under a deadline for my job, so it might still be awhile.

also, i might be stopping by a friends house tonight who still uses win '98. if i remember to bring a disc with civiliza i can do some testing.

mark: would you happen to know what version of DirectX you are using?

	21-03-2002 08:18									#28
	Support Apolyton

drop-down boxes can be convenient, but i think they are annoying. it takes three times as many clicks with a drop-down box, than with something layed out properly.

here's the working of the new world screen. each civ is easily toggled on or off for that particular game.

Attachment: sshot19.jpg
This has been downloaded 133 time(s).

	22-03-2002 05:05									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi Dex: Its 8.0

	03-04-2002 05:11									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

Dexter, what do you see as the role of "condemning" a war declaration? It's a brilliant idea...

Based on your last screenshot, I'd like to suggest that you not have "The" anything. Even if you're set on using country names (e.g. "Canada") instead of the adjective/people ("Canadian/s"), it would still look better to omit "the." "Assyria declares war on The Hittites" - that looks awful to me. I'd prefer "...declares war on Hittites."

Couple of spelling probs, too; "glorious" and "Scotland" at least...

I also have an attention-getting name for your conflict-centered game. The small number of civs on the board always makes it look like the players are really "civs" and not countries, so why not call such a game...

"RACE WAR: Cleanse The Earth!"

Miznia

(just a joke, by the way)