01-03-2002 15:39									#1
	Sheer exasperating stupidity Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've complained at length on these boards AT LEAST TWICE about the slow rate at which I can research science on the easiest difficulty level. I had heard but never really registered the fact that science was somehow affected by the map size. I never play smaller maps than the very biggest, which is still unrealistically small IMO.

So I decide to play a random game and the game gives me either the normal map or one size smaller, Im not sure.

And that's it. Just like that my science woes are over. Suddenly Im getting each tech after between 4 to 10 turns.

This is RIDICULOUS! I dont want to play on these tiny little maps. Why the hell should map size affect the rate at which I discover science advances all other things being equal?

I have just about given up on this game. It's a lot of fun 90% of the time and it's migraine-inducing the other 10%. I've heard the advanced players in here saying something about adjusting this stuff by modifying the game. I'm tired of playing their game. I want to play a game thats FUN.

How do I do it? Can a computer illiterate like myself do it?

HELP!

Please do NOT give me ANY advice about trading techs or building the Great Library and all that crap. I DONT trade techs and I shouldn't have to. As for the gameplay aspects, I do what has to be done. Race to literature, libraries every city, build Great Library, race to education, universities every city, etc, etc, ad infinitum.

I could just cheat and set my science rate to 100%. The game doesn't penalize you on the lowest difficulty for having no money...

	01-03-2002 16:10									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

You can change the tech rate for each map size in the editor.
Just put the values for the big maps the same as the small ones.

But then don't be upset if you reach the end of the tech tree in 1000 AD on a huge map.

The reason for the differences towards map size is that
Large map=many cities=lots of pop=lots of beakers=faster techs.

At the beginning of a game you have only one city so of course techs take very long to research on a big map compared to a small one. But when you have 30+ cities later on (just an example) you can get techs much faster than with the 5+ cities you have on small maps.

Not the perfect description but I hope you get the idea.

	01-03-2002 16:25									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Thank you, Todd. You make an interesting point.

How do I get at the "editor"? Do I have to hack the game? I'm fairly computer illiterate. Is it in the root directory?

I guess I'll try to build a thousand cities. I admit, once I have a certain number of cities as an infrastructure, I slow expansion considerably. It gets a little boring. Maybe I should stick with it.

Anyway, thank you for at least giving me something new to try...

Thanks in advance to whomever tells me how to get at the editor.

	01-03-2002 16:38									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

1. Start civ3edit.exe in your civ3 directory. Open civ3mod.bic (after making a backup of that file!)

2. Go to the "extras" menu and uncheck "Use standard rules"

3. Go to the "rules" menu and "Change rules" (the first option)

4. Edit whatever you wish to (especially in "Map sizes": "tech rate").

5. You can get a lot of hints about what all those numbers do in the help-file of the editor!!!

6. Save as civ3mod.bic.

7. Start a new Civ3 game.

(Notice: I have a German language version of the editor so I don't know the exact names of the menus but you shouldn't have problems finding the stuff).

	01-03-2002 18:34									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Generally, Civs that shut out ideas from the rest of the world will fall behind in technology.

	01-03-2002 18:58									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The solution is simple: Claim two to three times as much territory as you normally do. The larger maps have a slower tech rate specifically due the fact that there's more land available, which equates to more cities, which of course means more science production. Unless you're already staking ungodly amounts of territory (I don't play on chieftan or on huge maps, let alone both), corruption shouldn't be an insurmountable problem.

	01-03-2002 19:09									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Todd Hawks You can change the tech rate for each map size in the editor. Just put the values for the big maps the same as the small ones. But then don't be upset if you reach the end of the tech tree in 1000 AD on a huge map. The reason for the differences towards map size is that Large map=many cities=lots of pop=lots of beakers=faster techs. At the beginning of a game you have only one city so of course techs take very long to research on a big map compared to a small one. But when you have 30+ cities later on (just an example) you can get techs much faster than with the 5+ cities you have on small maps. Not the perfect description but I hope you get the idea.

Agreed this is how it is supposed to work (and point of the matter had worked for at least CIV2 and SMAC) But I think Firaxis broke the game with the corruption model. The competing effects of more cities meaning more trade is valid as long as the corruption curve doesn't virtually eliminate cities contributions after base limits are exceeded. Its the whole ICS eliminating mentality Firaxis chose to pursue that makes larger maps much more difficult. Had they simply chosen to fight ICS using a corruption model that emulated the SMAC efficiency model, incorporated an unhappiness model based on beuracracy effect like the SMAC model, etc. the large map sizes would allow a game to move along at a reasonable pace.

Point is they had a tremendous amount of innovations in SMAC that they chose to ignore/not incorporate. I like the culture and the strat resources in CIV3 but after that it starts to pale in comparison to SMAC IMHO.

Just my spin

Og

	01-03-2002 20:01									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Archmage How do I get at the "editor"? Do I have to hack the game? I'm fairly computer illiterate. Is it in the root directory?

I wouldn't mess with your standard rules file, if you're dumb about computers. You'll only end up screwing up the game, and then you'll actually have something real to complain about.

Create a new .bic file, and load it as a scenario. That way, you don't wreck the default game parameters. I'd explain how to do it, but I really don't have a lot of patience with computer illiterates.

	01-03-2002 20:20									#9
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

There has to be another problem. I have played on cheiftan on huge maps and I have had no problems getting techs at the rate of 4 - 10 turns. This is usually after I change to Monarchy and Republic. The first few tech do take a while but by the time I hit the first era change I'm rolling through the techs.

I usually play as the Babylonians, 12 civs. I just build cites until I have maybe 20 - 30 and I stop. Research is not problem.

No need to edit the bic file.

	01-03-2002 20:23									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

I also strongly suggest making use of the helpfile that comes with the editor, especially if you're just starting out. Some of the newbie editor questions I see on the editing and creation forums here and elsewhere could be easily answered by referencing the editor help.

Dan

	01-03-2002 20:24									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by woody I'd explain how to do it, but I really don't have a lot of patience with computer illiterates.

Now there's someone helpful! Why did you even reply??

Anyway....

To go in the editor, if you dont alredy have a shortcut on your desktop, go in your Infograms folder and you'll find CivEdit.exe. Click on it and it'll start. On your task bar on the top, you have the "Tool" directory, choose it and Un-click "use default rules. Then you go in the "edit" directory and choose "edit rules". Now here you have, I think, 12 menus on which you can change anything you want. But be careful, some changes you make may cuz the game to crash without warning!! It happened to me, I made changes on the F-15 unit and got it really late in the game. As soon as I completed my first one, the game crashed. So I could'nt make one F-15 if I wanted to finish my game.. But the editor's fairly easy to use. A lot of the changes you would like to make can be done in the "general Settings" menu.

The changes I always play with are as follows. I always want to lower corruption so I just increase the "optimal number of cities", to 60, it's a good number IMO. I also adjust pollution generated by the pop. I reduce it a bit cuz it's useless and has no link with global warming what so ever, it'll only depend on how many peeps you have in your empire. I also always increase the movements of my battleships, carriers and ageis cruisers to like 8 or 10 cuz I dont beleive that it takes 20 years for a boat to cross an ocean. Just these changes make the game a lot more fun.

Anyway, hope that helps you. If you got any other questions, ask away!!

Oh ya and try to have less "whiny" titles, it doesn't encourage peeps like me to help you. Not to be mean but the first thing I thought after I read your post was "Sheer exasperating ignorance". Anyway, enjoy your editor!

Spec.

	01-03-2002 21:56									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well one thing that no one ever seems to mention is that you can adjust the beaker cost of techs in the advances area. I was having a problem playing huge maps, 256 X 256, with the tech timeline, the Industrial Era was starting way to early, from a historical perspective. What I've done is increase the cost of all the techs in an era, adding 5 beakers to each in Ancient Era, 10 in Middle Ages, 15 in Industrial, and 20 in Modern. Plus I increased the maximum tech rate to 60 turns and increased the world sizes tech rate to 300. At the moment I'm approaching the Industrial Era, and the timeline is just about right.