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Adm.Naismith
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Milano - Italy
Oct 1999
time: 06:18
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Tanks Arrian!  Interesting links, and I must add I've seen lot of silly offers for trade, something like the "1 gold" offer mentioned.
What a pity I never saved nor grabbed a screenshot to show this.
Another silly situation: Playing at regent level, I captured a german city, then I tried to sell it to Chinese (the nearest civ, allied with me against german) because I had plenty of town and I preferred to reinforce Chinese that manage a far, corrupted city, for my empire. Chinese refuse to offer anything.
I gave the city away as a gift to Chinese: they accept, then order my former garrison troops to immediatly leave their new town border or else!
Come on, stupid AI, I've left the city to you just a second ago! 
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White Elk
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North America
Jan 2002
time: 21:18
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AJ Corp. The FAIR
I agree with your impression; I just wanted to point out that the tech changes are indeed felt at the Monarch difficulty.
In my current game I've just learned Military Tradition in 1140 AD. This is much quicker than my prepatch average, and it seems that some strategies/methods of play are no longer possible.
Last edited by White Elk on 05-03-2002 at 10:09
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kimmygibler
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It's mostly tech trading and the catchup bonus that causes the problems. This is the biggest problem with the game now.
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Dienstag
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Brea, CA, USA
Feb 2000
time: 05:18
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Two more things I don't think were mentioned yet:
Possibly one more factor in the furious tech rate (which I can't stand) is the instant techs that expansionist civs seem to get in droves. Nothing irritates me more than making contact with the English about 20 to 30 turns into the game, to find they have something like a 6 tech lead. This is about the time when it's still taking me 30-some turns per tech. You just know they're going to make contact with everyone posssible, and you'll be half an age behind if you don't somehow get in on that. So the expansionist civ ends up with some more money, and the rest of the continent is haflway to the Medieval Era, and NO ONE HAS RESEARCHED HALF THE TECHS, since they all came form obscure genius-tribes. That's not the way a fun game works.
Another factor is the multitude of "Do-nothing-but-allow-more-research" techs. If all the techs did something, I bet that the era would feel more satisfying, even if the number of turns was otherwise unchanged. However, yes, it should also last more turns.
I haven't played with the editor too much, and not at all on this topic yet. My first thought is that increasing the minimun turns per tech from 4 would mean, mostly, that you'd get more money from lower science rates. The general increase of tech cost seems to have more potential, but I wonder how this will work with the city growth/production rates... I mean, if you're still researching Construction, but most of your cities are stuck at size and have no city improvements left to build, is that really what you want? Come to think of it, that doesn't sound too bad. Anyone who tries this, I'm sure we'd love to see your insights.
For the record, I currently play on Monarch, and if this is any worse on Emperor I can't imagine playing that level...
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Steve Clark
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Colorado Springs, CO
Oct 1999
time: 22:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dida
I'm playing Monarch,Standard map. right now it is 1200 AD, i'm already building the space ship to AC.  |
Just like a Civ2 game. If I recall, there was a definitely movement to change some key Civ3 features back to Civ2. Firaxis, again, listened to our narrow-minded request and apparently complied. Now people are complaining about that they changed some key Civ3 featires back to Civ2.
Every single change will have side effects. We don't know what they would be, so don't be surprised that they show up because we just see the trees, not the forest. First we complain that it takes forever to research anything, now we complain that getting techs happen too quickly. I believe a solution lies in having the civer, through its actions, determine how slow or fast they get techs, not being forced into "ages". But then again, if they did that, you will get people complaining that the X age goes by too fast and that you will have researched one line of techs while ignoring other ones.
This goes back to my fire truck analogy of getting a blue one and then wanting a red one. You then get a red one but you really wanted a blue one. They give you a neutral color one so you can make it whatever color you want and now you say you want a blue/red one.  
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DFHNY
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i think it may take months or years to get the AI right
think about it, one change creates hundreds of other effects...
i look at it like this, I paid my fifty dollars and have enjoyed the ride, i see this software like Linux where we are all "play testers" and we constantly improve the AI over time with our feedback, maybe even open up the code to people on these boards who can code...because we enjoy the complexities and we are adults (as opposed to kids who buy game cartridges that can't be updated as easily, if at all). I just hope Soren keeps on tweaking the code. My point is that it will never be perfect, but it can be improved in itterations. Do we want those playtesting rounds to go on in the dark? More fun if we have a part in it. That being said, it is clear that the game has become too much "do this or else" and that is what I hate about it at the moment (playing Monarch level, I have little room to say a. not expand b. not get military tech c. change gov't d. sail around...sailing around was a lot of fun in civ 1 and 2...just to explore ya know). Some of the innocence of the game has been lost I guess since civ1, but it is still lots of fun. Soren: please make the different civs think differently about expand vs. improve like was done in civ2.
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Steve Clark
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Colorado Springs, CO
Oct 1999
time: 22:18
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White Elk
I like "not seeing the forest for the landscape". That is very clever. I think I'll include that in my signature.
In the past 18 months in this forum, I have witnesses many conflicting viewpoints on civ elements, including how the tech research should be handled. You seem to suggest that there is a magic answer. I say that such an answer is impossible to achieve because there will always will be a subset of civers that will want/demand just the opposite.
Quite a while ago, we (mainly Civ2/SMAC vets) documented some of the complaints that the ancient age went by too fast, as well as the complaints that you can research a modern tech without having some middle ages one. That led to, in Civ3, the forced Ages, not only forcing you to research nearly all of the techs before going onto the next Age, but in forcing a 32 or 40 turn rate early on so you are forced to spend more time in the age. (My response has always been that if you want to spend more time in the ancient age, go play one of Kull's Ancient Age scenarios). But alas, since this was one of the more prominent complaints, Firaxis complied but in hindsight, many(?) of those who made the original complaints determined that perhaps the way it was in Civ2 wasn't so bad after all. So perhaps that led to the tweak in the other direction and predicatably that aliented those that liked it the other way. My only point is that there must be a design decision on the approach to this one feature and stick with it. As with all design decisions, some will love it and some will hate it. You can't expect to tweak it to death and have more people like it because using your analogy, I didn't want you to fine tune a horsedrawn vehicle in the first place, I wanted you to design an airplane.
I know this offers nothing regarding resolving or fine tuning this feature. I'm just taking a historical perspective or perhaps a more forest perspective where it doesn't make sense to fine tune a pine tree when it should be a forest of aspens (or vice-versa).
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05-03-2002 02:53
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