03-03-2002 00:29									#1
	Editor ->Movement Rate for RR option Tired of ads?

I notice in the Editor that there's an option to change to movement rate along roads. (currently 3x)

AFAIK, there's currently no option for the railroad. How many of you would like to see this as an option in the Editor? You don't have to use it but those of us who want RR's less infinite (so navy and air become more useful, and distance still means something) would be able to toggle that to something like 9x or 12x.

I assume this wouldn't be particularly difficult to add in. Let me know if there's some deep-rooted problem I'm not seeing.

	03-03-2002 00:39									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

As it is right now, a warrior can go around the globe a billion times in one single turn on RR, running faster than the speed of light, which is ridiculous.
RR is too damn overpowered, it makes the defender's job too easy, and invasion totally impossible. As soon as the invader lands his troops on the shore, the defender can gather every single artillery pieces he has on the continent, and bomb the crap out of the invader. After that, his tanks can gather, and promptly wipe out the enemy, and return to their original cities at the same turn.

	03-03-2002 01:00									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

what Dida said, and this:

This is one of the few things that where done better in CtP, and yes, Firaxis should take that as an insult

	03-03-2002 01:38									#4
	Same problem, different approach Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yep. Railroads (and Airlifts and Airplane Re-basing Missions) seem unbalancing.

Each turn represents at least a year so it makes sense, on the one hand, that you could get around the world in that time. On the other hand, how come the USS Enterprise can only sail from San Diego to San Francisco during that same year? How come the foot soldier and worker can only walk from New York to New Jersey if they are on a road? How come it takes several turns to sail over, unload and attack a new continent, but once you've got a city with an airport you can pile in the units?

Limiting RR movement would be tricky though. Why should infantry go 12 squares, while the modern armor (riding on the same train) goes 36 during the same turn?


I would suggest having the sea and road movement values change at about the same time that RR is introduced (I'm not editor savvy, so maybe this is already possible).

An example would be to triple the road movement from 3 to 9 and increase the sea movement from 1 to 3 with the discovery of Steam Power. This would only be fair if it was triggered for all civs when the first civ discovers it (similar to the manhattan project in CIV II, which allowed all civs to build atomic weapons).

This seems like a pretty big change so I wouldn't really expect Firaxis to try it in a patch, but it seems like it would get at the crux of the RR and Naval movement complaints.

	03-03-2002 01:50									#5
	Re: Same problem, different approach Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by davidttm Limiting RR movement would be tricky though. Why should infantry go 12 squares, while the modern armor (riding on the same train) goes 36 during the same turn?

They've got to drive to the train station.

	03-03-2002 02:00									#6
	Re: Same problem, different approach Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by davidttm I would suggest having the sea and road movement values change at about the same time that RR is introduced (I'm not editor savvy, so maybe this is already possible). An example would be to triple the road movement from 3 to 9 and increase the sea movement from 1 to 3 with the discovery of Steam Power. This would only be fair if it was triggered for all civs when the first civ discovers it (similar to the manhattan project in CIV II, which allowed all civs to build atomic weapons). This seems like a pretty big change so I wouldn't really expect Firaxis to try it in a patch, but it seems like it would get at the crux of the RR and Naval movement complaints.

Okay, seriously now, you've got an idea there that's worth considering. You could boost road/sea movement for the modern era but wouldn't it be simpler just to give modern units MORE movement points? And how does that solve the unlimited RR problem?

Others have suggested a "locomotive unit" that is the only unit that can use RR's. You then load and unload other units onto it like a transport. This wouldn't be any more tedious than a sea invasion. If we cut down on the # of units overall (decreases tedium too!), this would make it very appealing. Plus, if the AI knows how to use transports already, it should be able to use locomotives too.

But, I think those are all harder than adding the simple option of editing RR movement rate.

I just want a simple way for now, to rebalance unlimited movement thing. There's some strangeness to having armour travel 36 while infantry travels only 12, but that's ok compared to having infinite travel! At least, in my mind.

Voters seem to agree, this should be part of the next Editor patch!

	03-03-2002 02:12									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think this is a pretty valid point, but the complaint that it makes invasions impossible doesn't really make sense to me. Can't the invaders use the railroads for the exact same purposes? And what's wrong with rebasing missions? I don't think its odd that an airplane can fly around the world in a year. Or a ship, for that matter. But that's not really mentioned.

	03-03-2002 02:27									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by 0bsidi0n Can't the invaders use the railroads for the exact same purposes?

Uhhh.... NO. You can't get the RR movement bonus on rails in other people's territory

	03-03-2002 02:31									#9
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by 0bsidi0n I think this is a pretty valid point, but the complaint that it makes invasions impossible doesn't really make sense to me. Can't the invaders use the railroads for the exact same purposes?

No, you can't use the roads or railroads that are within a rival's territory (ie: cultural boundaries).

-edit-
Ming beat me too it!

I think you can use them if you have RoP though. But someone you're at war with isn't going to give you RoP!

quote: And what's wrong with rebasing missions? I don't think its odd that an airplane can fly around the world in a year. Or a ship, for that matter. But that's not really mentioned.

Sorry, what do you mean? Are you saying you think ship movement is ok or not? If we cut out unlimited RR movement, that makes ship & air movement less impotent.

	03-03-2002 02:39									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

If it sohould be an option, the easiest way would make it to be based on to road multiplier (or the savegame format would need a big reworking) Which means that if the road multiplier were 3 you and a new RR multiplier were 3 that would mean that you could walk 9 times on a railroad.

	03-03-2002 03:55									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

You don't have that option?

	03-03-2002 04:41									#12
	Re: Re: Same problem, different approach Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Captain You could boost road/sea movement for the modern era but wouldn't it be simpler just to give modern units MORE movement points?

I was thinking about the infamous 'game balance', of course. Giving the benefit only to modern units hands them an even bigger advantage than they already have. I don't really want to be stuck with horsies when Herr Bismarck shows up with his 9 movement Panzers.

And yes I do know the air units should be able to rebase around the world, but I think that gives them an unnecessary advantage over naval units, which would also be able to rebase anywhere in the world during a one-year long move. So another two cents worth from me might be to add toggles to sea movement (to increase naval unit speed) and rebase range (to decrease air unit speed).

I do agree that allowing modification of the RR movement is probably the most direct way to handle this (Even in the infantry and modern armor example I used above the prudent general would probably keep the stack of offensive and defensive units together).

I was just trying to (hijack the thread?) address movement by all units including air and sea units.

	03-03-2002 04:45									#13
	Re: Re: Re: Same problem, different approach Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

oops

	03-03-2002 05:05									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Tanks on flat-beds don't move faster than men in passenger cars, so a movement multipler would not make things better, IMO.

The way to fix rail movement might be to introduce an old board game concept. Rail Cap (capacity). Only so many units per turn can move on the rails. There are only so many trains. Maybe 1 or 2 units per city on any given continent?

Salve

PS. Option 4 all the way!

Last edited by notyoueither on 03-03-2002 at 05:17

	03-03-2002 05:16									#15
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Tanks on flat-beds don't move faster than men in passenger cars, so a movement mutipler would not make things better, IMO.

Rule suggestion: On rails, any unit may move a certain number of tiles (say, 9) per turn regardless of the unit's movement rate.

	03-03-2002 05:21									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

how far can one move in a YEAR on a railroad? would this multiplier be map size specific? I dont mind if the ai has the advantage of unlimited movement when I invade his territory, and I seriously doubt that any mp game would last this long.

	03-03-2002 05:47									#17
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The simplest way to fix the infinite move thing is simply make unit on RR moves 9x faster. Other suggestions (limitation on number of unit, etc) is too complex. Plus, this concept has already been implemented in CTP. In that game, unit moves 3x as fast on road, and 5x as fast on RR. It is a very nice system, no one ever complaint about that. It is okay for a tank to move 2x faster than infantry. Some units moves faster then others, that is one of the reasons why you build different units.
For the air plane rebasing issue, I think airplanes should be able to rebase to a city/carrier twice its max operational range away. If a bomber's range is 6, it should be able to rebase to a city 12 tiles away, but not to a city that is 1000 tiles away. That is because bombing is a 2 way mission. If a plane can bomb targets 6 tiles away, it must have enough feul to fly 12 tiles continueously.
I don't see anything wrong with airdrop.

BTW: Fixed movement rate on RR regardless of unit type thing is also good. Simple enough.

	03-03-2002 06:23									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dida The simplest way to fix the infinite move thing is simply make unit on RR moves 9x faster. Other suggestions (limitation on number of unit, etc) is too complex.

How is it more complex to have Rail Cap? We already have Air Cap, ie you can only air transport as many units as you have AirPorts. OK. It requires one more element in the game display. Not a big deal (to me).

I think it is absurd that the fastest (best) units would be able to rail far beyond the range of Infantry. Especially when it is far easier to move an Infantry Division transcontinental than it is any Mechanised Division.

BTW. Rail Cap would be more balanced than movement multipliers in that multipliers would be yet another advantage to fast units and one more disincentive to build Infantry.

Salve

	03-03-2002 08:10									#19
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Let's drop the idea of "one turn=one year" for now, okay? Yes, units on RR probably could travel around the whole world in a year, but so could aircraft and ships.

Let's just look at it as balancing movement so land units aren't so ridiculously fast.

Yes, a rail cap would seem to be a better solution. It brings in the question of how the moves left would be recorded though. would they be separate from regular movement points? That might make things too complex for a patch.
-edit-
(sorry, i meant lockstep's idea of limiting mvt to 9x ceiling.)
As for notyoueither's rail cap idea, that would work well too. is that as easy to do as the RR mvt rate option?
-end edit-



Just for a simple patch, they could add RR movement as editable. If it's 3x, on top of the road 3x, that's 9x total. Plenty enough but not infinite. There is the different moves conundrum, but I don't think it's much of a real problem.

Consider, most modern armies DO use non-human transportation methods - very similar to tanks. So give them all the same movement and we won't have this problem of infantry moving 9x while armour goes 36x. They'll all go 36x. A lot of modern artillery is self-propelled as well. Definitely NOT perfect, but overall, problem solved!

Or am I missing some other consideration?

(Note: Simple solutions people, for the next patch or XP. Not a whole new game. I don't want to wait for Civ 4 to have this option.)

	03-03-2002 08:28									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

for a simple patch, Firaxis can make all unit move at the same rate(not infinite), or, make RR 3x more powerful than roads. Those are simple enough to implement.
Giving a max unit a RR line can transport is too complex, this will require re programming lots of stuff.

	03-03-2002 08:32									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Ok, so we've got some ideas here and some of them seem pretty simple to implement. Shouldn't unbalance the game IMHO, and I think the AI will be more than able to handle it.

Now, how do we let Firaxis know?

	03-03-2002 08:37									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Captain Ok, so we've got some ideas here and some of them seem pretty simple to implement. Shouldn't unbalance the game IMHO, and I think the AI will be more than able to handle it. Now, how do we let Firaxis know?

in fact, limiting the movement rate on RR can help the AI. Because a human player would know to concentrate his force and wipe out the invader as soon as he landed, but the computer doesn't handle that too well.

	05-03-2002 10:07									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

New idea:

Is it possible to create a "land transport" unit?

I know the army can sort of do this, but it doesn't have it's own mvt rate, plus it fights. So that's no good.

I want to do this:
Create a "transport" that is a land unit.
Load and unload, say up to 8 units.
Movement rate of 7x or 8x (along roads, that's 21 tiles or 24 tiles).
Then I would disable RR and treat these as "trains" (assume that the RR gets laid in the construction cost of building the "train".

Anyone out there know if this is possible?

	05-03-2002 10:25									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm regret to tell you, that your idea sucks.
Why? because it adds more micormanagement to this already tedious game. Imagine you have to load and unload all those unit, one by one, move them, and unload again. Just give me a break.

	05-03-2002 10:37									#25
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Dida I'm regret to tell you, that your idea sucks. Why? because it adds more micormanagement to this already tedious game. Imagine you have to load and unload all those unit, one by one, move them, and unload again. Just give me a break.

Not any more micromanagement than you already have to do to organize sea invasions.

I tend to see it as micromgt with a purpose. Limiting movement adds strategy. Having unlimited moves to just shuttle all your units to the frontlines without thinking is tedious. This is not, IMHO. Now you've actually got to consider which units you want where in which round, so as to serve the best purpose.


---
I should probably note that I'm trying to develop a "reductionist" mod. I'm increasing variety but trying to decrease absolute numbers. (eg. my military ideal is about 60 units, NOT the typical 200. My ideal empire is 25 cities.) Each city is very unique (not clones of each other) and so very valuable. You won't be able to build every improvement in every city. I plan to scale up power so that as the ages go by, you keep roughly the same # of units but increase their power.
---

Still, anyone know if it's even possible to do what I'm hoping? Otherwise I'm just wasting my breath.


But again, I would be happy with having the option of changing the RR movement rate. So no worries, as long as we get rid of infinite movement.

	05-03-2002 11:43									#26
	Got spare money?

I voted for #4, pretty much because I want something like the rail capacity idea mentioned above...

Yes, that might not be patch material, but it sounds to me like the best fix for these movement issues. That, and increase naval movement.

If they can do it for a patch, though, I be happy to play the 9x railroads. Anything other than infinite movement will promote more decision making and strategy, and just might be more realistic anyway.