03-01-2001 12:25									#1
	A tech tree that loses branches? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

China supposedly was ready for an industrial revolution back in the 14th century, but did not take it. The Greeks invented the concept of the Steam Engine in pre-Christian times, but never launched any ironclads! Technology and paths to tech can be lost. So what I am wondering is would it be feasible, from a game standpoint, to have technology make other tech paths obsolete as well as make new ones available?

	04-01-2001 10:50									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

Doesn't that happen anyways? I can't remember for CivII but I know that in SMAC I tend to get the more powerful weapons before the weaker ones because I simply didn't need the tech branch that those weaker weapons were on. Those weaker weapons only became available when I did need those couple of techs at the end of the branch.

I don't think new techs should make older ones unresearchable because it would cause prerequisite problems later on. Make them less worth while to research would make sense though.

	07-01-2001 02:38									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

IMO in SMAC that is a flaw of the game.

Historically speaking there were a lot of inventions that were lost because they were never put in practice at large scale or at all.
If the tech tree will have many branches and theoretical tech separate of practical tech (Gunpowder tech => Musket/Musketeer tech for Musketeer unit), then it could be same limits : if you don't buid a Musketeer unit in 50 turn after you discover Musketeer tech you'll lose that tech; if you don't dicover (or at least reserch) a tech on the branch of Gunpowder in 200 turn you will lose Gunpowder.
For that it should be more turns in every Age and tech should be harder to discover. That way you can build an army of musketeers and use it before you get rifleman.

What do you say about secret reserch (it would cost you more RP or rather same money) that the other players don't know about it even they have embassy? Only spy can see them.

	08-01-2001 04:23									#4
	Put an end to popups!

Space Empires IV solved this problem very nicely. They have three different technology trees available for players to research. One of them deals exculsively with weapon/unit concepts, one with general technologies like banking or agriculture, and the most important one deal with theoretical research.

Under such a system you might research "physics level one" which opens up "physics level two" on the theoritical research tree, and technologies such as "Bronze working" on the general technology tree.

Bronze working in turn opens up a number of units to you in the Units/weapons list, including the phalanx but also several other units as well.

Similiarly "domestication" on the theoritical research tree would open up a list of animals that could be domesticated. Learning to domesticate the horse would give you access to "horseback riding", "carts", and "The moldboard plow".

Each theoretical advance you learn would open up new advance to you on one or more of the lists. Then you could choose whether to go after more theoretical knowledge, new units, or more general technology to improve your civilization. It works great in SEIV.


[This message has been edited by Windborne (edited January 07, 2001).]

	08-01-2001 04:41									#5
	Support Apolyton

Small points- The start of the industrial revolution has at least 30 provisos that historians think are important. It's no surprise China missed out.

Also Hero's steam engine was by ne means comparable to 18th entury British deisgns such as Newcommen or Watt engines. The Greeks were unable to make any real form of propulsion

	08-01-2001 04:43									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Windborne, I like the sound of that Space Empires system but I'll actually have to play it to make a valid judgement.

The time I wouldn't mind branches falling is if the tech tree was diverging instead of converging. That way there would be less prerequitiste problems and each "branch" would have it's own ways of filling needs. ie automation vs. slavery. Wasn't the reason why the steam engine never took of during the Classical period was because the Romans had so many slaves that it was cheaper to use human labour than machinery?

	08-01-2001 05:32									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I don't know if anybody saw the History Channel's "Modern Marvels Challenge," but in it they had to "rediscover" how Ceaser built a bridge over the Rhine in 10 days. We forgot how to do this!-Likewise, we have also forgotton languages. We do forget.

My idea:You pay an initial research price in beakers. Each turn after its complete, a beaker is lost and you will have to "resupply" it. When all the beakers are gone, a message like "Sir, if we don't reresearch ______ in 5 turns, we will forget it for eternity."

Also: in order to resupply, two changes should be made to the Tax/science/luxury bars:1. you should be able to move the sliders by ones and 2. you should be able to subdivide your science meter into new science and remembering old science. The old science part will automatically put more emphasis on the techs closest to being forgotten unless you don't care. But, if you forgot a tech and you find unreadable hieroglyphics (which would give you a science bonus if you could read them) then you will be sorry.
One final comment:you should have an option at the beginning if you do or don't want to be able to lose techs

	08-01-2001 17:57									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I don't like the idea of having to supply shields to keep technology, but I do think we should be able to have "dark ages" where a culture forgets certain techs.

Perhaps a better way to do this would be to base it on natural events, for instance if the culture lost 10% or more of it's cities there might be a random chance of it losing a technology or two in the turmoil.