04-03-2002 23:12									#1
	Surprising events (MPP and revolt) Increase the size of your Attachments

Two surprising events happened in my last game. I don't ever remember these happening in pre-1.17f games, although that could be just because I never had the right circumstances.

(1) My democratic civilization fell into anarchy even though not a single city was in disorder. In fact, my luxury rate was set so high that the majority of my cities were celebrating WLTKD. Admittingly, I had been at war for several turns, not sure how many. Will your civ fall into anarchy after a set number of turns at war, no matter what the state of happiness of your citizens?

(2) During the AI's turn, one civ with whom I was at war signed a mutual protection pact with another civ. Before the AI's turn was over, the other civ declared war on me for attacking its MPP partner. Although I had been attacking it pre-MPP, I never attacked it post-MPP, as I never had a chance. This all happened during a single AI turn. In fact, I would have attempted to negotiate a peace agreement because of the new MPP. I thought that you had to actually attack the civ to trigger the MPP. I did have troops in his territory, but still. What's going on here? Is this a bug? As I said, this never happened to me pre-1.17f, but maybe I just never had the right circumstances.

Rimpy

	05-03-2002 00:33									#2
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(1) Yes. Although I don't know if it is a set number of turns. Could be just random.

(2) I *think* that if you sign a MPP during war the effect will be immediate. At least it happened to me that way often. But I am not sure if it happened always. It as well could be just my imagination and the reason was that the particular civ wanted to declare war on me anyway (even without MPP).

	05-03-2002 01:55									#3
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(1) I don't know, never had this happen

(2) I HAVE had this happen, what I attributed it to, was I THINK was that my units were in enemy territory and made tiles around cities unworkable, throwing a city into starvation, or cutting off a strategic resource, and that caused the immediate declaration of war through MPP.

I could be on crack though. It seems to cause short term memory problems, so I can never remember if I am on it or not.

	05-03-2002 01:59									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

(1) yes, even though you are "covering up" the war weariness with luxuries, eventually your civilization will collapse into anarchy. I've seen this both pre 1.17f and post 1.17f. Makes it tough to be a democracy in an aggressive war.

	05-03-2002 03:03									#5
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2) I would say this happens to me about 90% of the time when 2 civs sign a MPP and I am at war with one. I have previously assumed that the civ I was at war with moved past a ZOC unit that attacked it in response, thus triggering the MPP. This assumption was based on the fact that: I was given to understand that MPPs only trigger if you attack one member inside their territory and; I use lots and lots of ZOC units in attacks (Cav & tanks), and they are usually not bunched, so pretty much any enemy movement will trigger a ZOC attack.

I do find it very annoying, since like you I would probably negotiate a peace treaty in response to the MPP.

	05-03-2002 04:01									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Fitz I have previously assumed that the civ I was at war with moved past a ZOC unit that attacked it in response, thus triggering the MPP.

Yeah, that sounds like a good explanation, and it probably applies in my case, although I can't remember specifically. I did have a bunch of cavalry in enemy territory when it happened.

quote: Originally posted by Fitz I do find it very annoying, since like you I would probably negotiate a peace treaty in response to the MPP.

It is extremely annoying, and it ruins the point of MPP's being a deterrant against attacks when you don't get a chance to not attack. It turns a MPP into a de facto military alliance. I think that I would have to describe this as a bug rather than a feature. If a ZOC attack is going to trigger a MPP, there should at least be a one turn delay so that you have a chance to get your troops out of the enemy's territory.

Rimpy

	08-03-2002 20:41									#7
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I haven't looked at MPP's as deterrents, and I don't think the AI does, either. To me, they are defensive alliances.

From this perspective, I want them to kick in as quickly as possible, and have in fact done what the AI did in your game: sign a pact to get an instant ally.

Has anyone noticed if the AI considers alliances and MPP's when deciding to declare war, or does it focus solely on the relative military strength of its potential opponent?

	08-03-2002 21:33									#8
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No never happen

	09-03-2002 00:35									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Txurce I haven't looked at MPP's as deterrents, and I don't think the AI does, either. To me, they are defensive alliances.

Well, I guess that they're both really. I know that before I attack someone, I check to see what MPPs are in effect. If a potential victim has an MPP with a strong civ, it definitely deters me from attacking them.

And I've used MPPs many, many times like you said -- when you're being attacked, sign an MPP to get an instant ally. MPPs are almost always cheaper than military alliances (assuming that you have to pay for a less-than-willing partner.)

quote: Originally posted by Txurce Has anyone noticed if the AI considers alliances and MPP's when deciding to declare war, or does it focus solely on the relative military strength of its potential opponent?

I have no concrete evidence (i.e. comments from Soren), but judging from some of my experiences, I'd say yes.

As long as this old thread is being bumped, I'd like to mention a third surprising event that happened to me near the end game. In my last game, I had all victory conditions turned off except for conquest.

There were two civ's left, the Babs and the Zulus, each of which only had one city. I'm at war with the Babs, peace with the Zulus. I was going to kill the Babs off, and leave the Zulus with their one crappy city so that I could do some sandbox-style empire building. (In all my 25+ games, I have never gotten as far as future techs, the game is always over by then.)

As soon as I kill the Babs off, I'm automatically in a state of war with the Zulus. I only know this by checking the foreign advisor screen. There's no popup saying that the Zulus are declaring war on me. Worse, my envoy is always refused, and I instantly fall into anarchy every chance possible. I emerge from anarchy, choose democracy, and I'm back to anarchy the next turn. Repeat endlessly. I don't get this. Does this have anything to do with choosing conquest-only? If you're down to one opponent, will that opponent always declare war against you?

Rimpy

	10-03-2002 11:54									#10
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Rimpy, your conquest-game situation seems very odd, because you shouldn't be falling into anarchy so often. It's my understanding that just being in a state of war shouldn't affect your war-weariness adversely, anyway... you'd need to have enemy troops in your territory, your troops in their territory, or a battle going on. It sounds as if none of the above were going on in your case.


(Believe it or not, I head for democracy, never leave it, and have never fallen into anarchy... although I've gone just about broke at 70% luxury.)