05-03-2002 20:55									#1
	Strategic Resources not there, why? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I need some help understanding the appearance and disappearance frequency of strategic resources. My experience is not matching my expectations. What I am trying to figure out is "Are my expectations wrong" or "is there something wrong with 1.17"?

My understanding of appearance frequency:
Ratio number in civ3bic file/10 = number of instances. 0= random number. Thus if bic has 120 for coal, there should be 12 coal resources somewhere in the standard world map.

My understanding of disappearance frequency:
Number in civ3bic file/10000 = frequency of disappearing in one turn. 0=never disappearing. Thus if Saltpeter is 800, each of the 452 turns, its odds of disappearing is .08%.

My game experience does not match this:
-- resources are appearing at about 1/2 expected rate
-- resources are disappearing at about 1/3 the expected rate.

{oh, this is at warload level}.

The never and random '0' flag seem to be working correctly.

Please help me understand what is happening. It is frustrating to be able to see 80% of the world and only see 1 coal, naturally in another civ's capital city.

	05-03-2002 21:17									#2
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I don't know about any numbers but the appearance is linked to the number of civs somehow.

(Quote from the editor: "Determines how many instances of the selected resource appear per player in the game. In an eight player game, a value of 160 would mean 2 resources of that kind per player.")

And about the disappearance: The higher the number the more likely is it that the resource disappears. Your suggestion would be the other way round. (e.g. uran has a ration of 100 and disappears more often than salpeter with a ratio of 800)

(Editor:"A value of 800 would mean a chance of 1 in 800 each turn to lose the resource.")


So I would say your expectations are quite wrong.

Where did you get these numbers anyway?

(Oh, and there are 540 turns btw. )

	05-03-2002 22:09									#3
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btw- misplaced sheet, couldn't remember if 452 or 542 turns.

Disappearance makes sense now.

Appearance still does not make sense.


Editor: ( value of 160 / 8 ) = 2 per player.


I understood as:

ITEM FORMULA
value editor sample 160
civs editor sample 8
PerCiv editor sample 2

ValPerCiv val/civs 20
AppearanceFactor ValPerCiv/ResourcesPerCiv 10
Appearances value/AppearanceFactor 16


Thus full grid is:

160 160 160 160
16 15 14 13
2 2 2 2
10 11 11 12
5 5 6 6
32 30 28 26

160 160 160 160
12 11 10 9
2 2 2 2
13 15 16 18
7 7 8 9
24 22 20 18

160 160 160 160
8 7 6 5
2 2 2 2
20 23 27 32
10 11 13 16
16 14 12 10

160 160 160 160
4 3 2 1
2 2 2 2
40 53 80 160
20 27 40 80
8 6 4 2


Summary only is:

civsalive 16 15 14 13
resources 32 30 28 26

civsalive 12 11 10 9
resources 24 22 20 18

civsalive 8 7 6 5
resources 16 14 12 10

civsalive 4 3 2 1
resources 8 6 4 2



NOW, if this is correct, when resources such as Al, Ur appear, is there appearance ratio determined by number of civs at start of game OR number of civs at that point in the tech tree?

Beside that, still doesn't make sense how number of civs factor in. All this seems suspect to me right now. Problem is the number per civ is not locked to the 160 value in editor.

	05-03-2002 23:30									#4
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Whatever little I know, but I know it for sure.

There are as many strat. resources of each type as civs, with no upper limit. Thus, a game with 8 civs has from 8 up to anywhat Oil/Rubber/anything.

Lux. resources are exactly as number of civs. 8 civ game has 8 Wines, 8 Ivory, 8 Dyes, etc.

	05-03-2002 23:39									#5
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I think the values are based on civs at the start of the game.
As every time a resource disappears a new one appears there should be no change of the total number during a game.

Also wether the terrain for enough of the resource is available plays a role.

And last I am not that sure if there isn't some random value in there as well... it often seems like there is.

	06-03-2002 00:35									#6
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Many times some resouces are hard to see on the map. Coal apears a lot in the jungles(dont have a clue why this is so) and are hard to see, it may be right under your nose and you dont even know it. Some times cities are sitting right on top of the resouce, thus you cant see it.

The number of resouces is set at benning of the game, if there is 8 civs, there are 8 resouces for each civ, and this never changes. I have never been able to find all the occurences of a certain resouce on a map before, too hard to be able to look for them since they are so hard to see.

	06-03-2002 00:45									#7
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Jack_www: use Control-Shift-m to toggle on/off display of junk which hides strategic resources.

Unfortunately I only saved my old games and not bic settings. At the end of this game
I am going to compare the editor settings with actual occurance of strategic resource.

The terrain on which a resource occurs is also an editor setting. For example, coal will only be found on
hills
mountains
jungles


Guess Firaxis has not seen central Illinois.

	06-03-2002 00:58									#8
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solver: sorry missed your response at first.

Interesting the difference between strategic resources and luxury resources. In the editor the default for luxury is '0', for random while strategic have a set value between 10 and 16.

It seems like higher numbers are supposed to mean more resources, but having difficulty getting a handle on the precise relationship.

Oh, and disappearance is just the opposite. A higher number means resource has higher probability of relocating during the game.

	06-03-2002 01:09									#9
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I recently started a game on warlord level, playing Egyptians, and my starting place was on a small island. There were no luxuries on the entire island. I figured that this was thebecause the island was pretty small. When I discovered iron working, iron appeared on my island. After map making, I began to explore other islands and settle there. Come to find out, there was not one luxury anywhere on the entire planet. Needless to say, I quit the game and restarted. I'm guessing it was a random bug. I have never touched the editor. I haven't ever seen this again, and don't want to. Keeping citizens happy without luxuries sucks!

	06-03-2002 02:47									#10
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall Jack_www: use Control-Shift-m to toggle on/off display of junk which hides strategic resources. Unfortunately I only saved my old games and not bic settings. At the end of this game I am going to compare the editor settings with actual occurance of strategic resource. The terrain on which a resource occurs is also an editor setting. For example, coal will only be found on hills mountains jungles Guess Firaxis has not seen central Illinois.

Thanks for the info, but I already know this, I use control-shift-m to look for resouces alot , and I know that coal is on moutains, hills and jungles. What I was trying to say is that In almost every game I play on a random map, It seems as if most of the coal is in the jungles and very little in the hills and mountains. Again I dont know why they have coal apear so much in the jungles. I know in all the games I have played if I had alot of cities in the jungles then I would most likely get coal, but if I did not have cities in the Jungles than I always have to go out and get some coal form someone else.

	06-03-2002 14:02									#11
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Planetfall,

It means that luxury resources stay the same way. They can not appear in new sources, and they can never disappear, unlike strategic resources.

	06-03-2002 14:11									#12
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall btw- misplaced sheet, couldn't remember if 452 or 542 turns. Disappearance makes sense now. Appearance still does not make sense. Editor: ( value of 160 / 8 ) = 2 per player. I understood as: [Lots of stuff deleted] Beside that, still doesn't make sense how number of civs factor in. All this seems suspect to me right now. Problem is the number per civ is not locked to the 160 value in editor.

Some people spend way too much time crunching numbers.
Just take it as it comes.

Robert

	06-03-2002 14:11									#13
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall btw- misplaced sheet, couldn't remember if 452 or 542 turns. Disappearance makes sense now. Appearance still does not make sense. Editor: ( value of 160 / 8 ) = 2 per player. I understood as: [Lots of stuff deleted] Beside that, still doesn't make sense how number of civs factor in. All this seems suspect to me right now. Problem is the number per civ is not locked to the 160 value in editor.

Some people spend way too much time crunching numbers.
Just take it as it comes, man.

Robert

	06-03-2002 21:49									#14
	resources slowly appearing Remove this text

Interesting event: one coal was in jungle 2 tiles from city. Not apparent in one turn but visible in next. I am guessing it was because I started working the jungle tile near the city which was adjacent to the tile with coal. It seems like the bombardment refresh issue. The resource is not visible until both meet tech requirement and there is some activity in either resource tile or adjacent tile. Did not see this before 1.17. Will have to keep watching as there is much jungle.

Yes, it might be quicker to just play the game, but if I can figure out the number of strategic resources available in this game then I can start developing tactics for removing strategic resource from other civ. Just cutting the roads to the capital is not as effective as removing strategic resource city and planting a new city over the strategic resource. Naturally AI's do not like that and any campaign must be able to withstand at least 2 AI counter attacks and culture bombs.

	06-03-2002 22:47									#15
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall The terrain on which a resource occurs is also an editor setting. For example, coal will only be found on hills mountains jungles Guess Firaxis has not seen central Illinois.

But if I clear the jungle so that it becomes grassland
before it is time for the coal to show up,
will the coal appear on that
grassland-tile despite that it should not appear there
acording to the settings?

-S

	06-03-2002 22:52									#16
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall The terrain on which a resource occurs is also an editor setting. For example, coal will only be found on hills mountains jungles Guess Firaxis has not seen central Illinois.

But if I clear the jungle so that it becomes grassland
before it is time for the coal to show up,
will the coal appear on that
grassland-tile despite that it should not appear there
acording to the settings?

-S

	06-03-2002 23:17									#17
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Based on game play and comments on the forum, the location of strategic resources is based on original terrain type of tile. Thus if you have jungle and clear it for improvement, allocation of coal is based on original jungle type not on current grassland terrain type.