06-03-2002 02:13									#1
	Minerals and Energy Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Can someone please explain the interconnection, if any, between minerals and energy. For example, if minerals are used in supporting troops, does that decrease energy output? Thanks.

	06-03-2002 02:42									#2
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There is no connection. Minerals support troops and are used to build everything. Energy is divided into energy credits and labs, then energy credits can be spent to rush build units, facilities, and projects.

In your example the only thing that would be decreased is the amount of minerals devoted to production at the base that supports said unit. Energy would remain unchanged.

	06-03-2002 02:58									#3
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Hmmm.. let me see.

There are 3 separate resources collected. Nuts, mins, and energy. They are all interrelated.

Energy is allocated between ecs, psych, and rps using the social engineering sliders. Ecs can be used to rush buy production items. If we assume either +4 efficiency where all energy can be allocated to ecs, or the case of 50/50 allocation and equal value to ecs and rps and no facilities or distance to HQ energy "inefficiency losses", then 2 energies are equal to 1 min for facility rush buying purposes after the first 10 mins are accumulated.

So as we move away from the HQ, it takes more than 2 energies.

As we build energy(specifically ec) enhancing facilities (EBs, TFs, HFs, Fusion Labs and more), it takes less than 2 energies per min.

Then as we build Genejacks, and Rob Assem Plants, it can take more energies per min again.

If using ecs to upgrade crawlers and then cash to SPs, then it varies from well over 2 ecs per min early, to about as little as .5 ecs per min late, with the nanofactory? for cheap upgrades.

It is also interesting to note that nuts can be turned into "efficiency proof energies" by using specialists. 2 nuts makes 3 early, 5 with the advent of fusion, and even more with trancendii. You can get these specialists almost immeadiately with pop booms, but it takes a while if not able to pop boom. This conversion is of course limited by hab limits.

Keeping track of this relationship throughout the game, and switching crawlers to collect the most efficient resource on a base by base basis, is key to getting that little bit extra it takes to win.

edit: Thanks WE, we cross-posted.

As WE said, units are supported by mins, and facilities are supported by ec "upkeep costs". Careful that you don't build to many facilities to early, because their net energy gain, might take a long time to repay their mineral, and therefore implied energy cost. Careful you don't build too many units, cause that will choke your mineral production.

I prefer probes and crawlers(some say to the extreme), because they are free of support costs. Crawlers can harvest any of the 3 resources. Probes can probe for research or steal ecs (both "energy"), and can be used to convert ecs into mins by buying bases or units.

Last edited by big_canuk on 06-03-2002 at 03:06

	06-03-2002 03:03									#4
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Maybe not a direct connection between min production and nrg production, but certainly there are indirect connections. You will often have somewhat of a tradeoff when social engineering. Same applies for support rating.

As well, if you are generating enough nrg you can start rush building everything, so the need for lots of mins is less.

	06-03-2002 03:07									#5
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Or you could focus on mins and build yourself fascilities which itself increase the energy amount you could collect and use.

	06-03-2002 03:44									#6
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quote: Originally posted by big_canuk So as we move away from the HQ, it takes more than 2 energies.

Strange theory about rush-buying.
For me (SMAX where I did do it excessively, but I think also SMAC) it costs always 2 energy credits to rush-buy. what you perhaps want to say is the equivalence of energy and minerals at a given base with a given inefficiency and given existing facilities. But this is only half of the truth because ECs you simply have are worthless. They have only worth if you buy something for it.
OK, perhaps it was only a bit misleading.

To summarise, there is a loose interconnection between the resources. You can happily play the game without ever thinking of it. Nuts goes for workers, Minerals for building facilities and troops, and for supporting troops, energy goes into research, psych, and cash, which in turn goes to the upkeep of existing facilities, and later funny stuff like subverting or buying peace. You can play with that, but perhaps not on Transcendent. Anyway, these are the things you are forced into by the game.
The interconnection is that more "deeply" it is possible to convert one resource into another. This is obvious with nuts, but through crawlers it possible to get resources without investing nuts (the nuts are not yet ripe. They are still green ). You can convert mins into energy (2:1 from what you get after taking into account factories) by Stockpile Energy. You can convert Energy into Minerals (2:1 if you already have 10 mins, after facilities) through rush-buying facilities, or at a worse rate rush-buying SPs (1:4, after you have ?? mins, definitely more than 10) or variable for units. You can convert Minerals into Minerals, 1:1 if you can cash in crawlers for prototypes or SPs, 1:2 else (my pre-crawler way to rush SPs). But these are all things you can choose freely and are not forced into.

	06-03-2002 06:06									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus Strange theory about rush-buying. For me (SMAX where I did do it excessively, but I think also SMAC) it costs always 2 energy credits to rush-buy. what you perhaps want to say is the equivalence of energy and minerals at a given base with a given inefficiency and given existing facilities. But this is only half of the truth because ECs you simply have are worthless. They have only worth if you buy something for it. OK, perhaps it was only a bit misleading.

Yes, Adalbertus, it always takes 2 ecs per min. But as you move away from your HQ, and you have some inefficiency, then it takes more than 2 *energies* per min. So, lacking facilities, at your HQ, a crawler on 4 energies is equivelent to a crawler on 2 mins. Further from your HQ, it may be 5 energies equiv to 2 mins.

Not completely equivelent though, because the ecs are transferable from base to base, where the mins, as you pointed out, are only transferable through crawlers, and then only for SPs and prototypes, or to rehome to other bases.

... and I always buy something asap with my ecs. Inflation is rampant in smac. I only hang on to ecs, for a specific purpose. Otherwise, there is always something to spend them on.

	06-03-2002 07:43									#8
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Energy credits, like money, are fungible, once added to "bank" they are all the same. When rush buying, it does not matter where they collected.

	06-03-2002 21:50									#9
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In short, "Yes, we have no bananas" .

Strictly speaking, the energy and mins are separate, but the economics of the game offer plenty of opportunities to trade off one for the other.

You can use energy credits to directly substitute for mins in the production box, you can use mins to build facilities that enhance the components of energy production and there are many other such relationships, including what you decide to produce with your workers, the SE settings and even who you are that will affect your output of widgets.

Note: Some players may prefer guns and butter to bananas and widgets.

	07-03-2002 04:21									#10
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I *like* bananas