07-03-2002 00:12									#31
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yep the second hand smoke has a health impact as well, as my asthma is directly related to second hand smoke. My parents smoke like chimneys, and I devloped asthma due to it. Now that I don't live there I have next to no problems with my asthma. I go out to their place I need to live off of the inhaler.

I think smokers should wear little glass bubbles over their head to contain their second hand smoke. This way they can enjoy the truely wonderful habit they have.

	07-03-2002 00:16									#32
	Suffering from ads?

I am a smoker and I always ask..when in a crowd or place with others..if I may smoke..because if it bothers them or they have asthma or problems of that sort I will NOT smoke..it is polite to ask before you light up and always courteous not to if someone says they don't want have it around them. i have children and I do not smoke around my kids..I don not want them to develop any lung problems...I guess I am a responsible smoker only trying to kill myself and no one else around me!

	07-03-2002 00:26									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Kudos!

It's nice to know that there are nice people out there. Many non-smokers just get soured by the not so nice people.

	07-03-2002 00:54									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Thanks..Yeah my exs dad would light up infront of my kids and his excuse would be IT's my house..WHAT A JERK..i would have to take my kids outside.... I guess i wouldn't want people to do it in front of my kids so I should carry the same respect..you can ask the Austin People..we did go out to eat...and I wanted a smoke..I asked if it was okay and they said sure and I asked again just to let them know I didn't mind waiting....

	07-03-2002 01:43									#35
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

You should be grateful for those of us who smoke in pubs. When we're around, you smell smoke.

When we're not around, you smell your fellow drinkers. They all smell of dead cats and biscuits. It's very nasty.

	07-03-2002 01:47									#36
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Drekkus There's no problem in legalizing smoking dope. It's criminalizing ordinary smokers. I think it's now established that second hand smoke is as dangerous as eating a cookie.

It's "established"? Where the hell did you hear that? Jesse Helms?

	07-03-2002 01:59									#37
	Remove this text

I love fanatical non-smokers. Particularly the ones who drive diesel cars. Now I never smoke around kids, but do diesel car drivers pump their carcinogenic fumes out past children? You bet your bum they do.

	07-03-2002 02:33									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Nobody wants to answer my question?

	07-03-2002 02:44									#39
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Isn´t smoking banned in public buildings (bars, restaurangs, etc) all over the states? Or is it just California?

IIRC, it's based on the city. Every city has their own rules about it.

	07-03-2002 03:05									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

OK, thanks! I friend of mine was over in the states (California) last year and he commented on this very subject. He is allergic to cigarett smoke so obviously he thought it was a good idea. I´m not allergic but I still find it discusting to go to pubs and such where you can´t see your hand in front of your face...

IMO Smoking should be banned in restaurants, cafés and such.

	07-03-2002 03:30									#41
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X I´m not allergic but I still find it discusting to go to pubs and such where you can´t see your hand in front of your face...

Try opening your eyes.

	07-03-2002 04:53									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by blackice Smokers not only pay thier fair share they pay a portion of yours too. I think that is why they continue to sell an over the counter deadly drug to it's citizens. Unlike any other say diet pill, cigarettes continue to be sold and are unregulated. Name another deadly drug or substance that is still sold that is proven to kill, over the counter yet.

Alcohol.

	07-03-2002 04:57									#43
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by blackice Albertans have a higher cost of living than those in the Maritimes. In the most recent study of the Consumer Price Index, Statscan found that Alberta had a CPI of 114.6, higher than all PEI, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick which had CPIs of 109.4, 112 and 110.4. Considering these facts alone, Alberta's minimum wage should be at $6.10 for Albertan's working minimum wage jobs to enjoy the same standard of living as workers earning the same wage, for example, in PEI

The minimum wage is $6.90. What figure were you using for your min wage?

	07-03-2002 05:04									#44
	Inflate your Upload Space

Tobacco smoke gives me allergies and asthma, so cigarrettes tend to annoy me more than they do for most other people.

quote: Isn´t smoking banned in public buildings (bars, restaurangs, etc) all over the states? Or is it just California?

Acutally, I'm fairly sure that this law is state-wide...

	07-03-2002 05:16									#45
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The minimum wage is $6.90. What figure were you using for your min wage?

$5.90. But there's so many jobs and not enough people so the lowest I know is $7 (McDonalds).

Or do you mean PEI's is $6.90?

	07-03-2002 05:19									#46
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Umm...aren't min. wages uniform across Canada?

It's 6.90 here, so I assumed...

	07-03-2002 05:20									#47
	Put an end to popups!

Nope, they're provincial.
BC's is something like $8/hour. Crazy. Leads to unemployment.

	07-03-2002 05:22									#48
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Wow. Didn't know that. I've never held a job outside la province du Québec.

I know that the states set their own min wages. A few years ago the Vermont leg. almost passed a bill increasing theirs to something crazy like 10 $US an hour. Was defeated narrowly.

	07-03-2002 06:56									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Again, you forget the difference in taxation which allows for Albertans to have that extra income to spend on things.

I will not highjack this thread over this debate but would love to debate you on it email me. You forget that Alberta has one of the highest single parent poverty levels in all of Canada over 50%...Due to minimum wage...and cost of living...rather unforgiving for a province with so much wealth...http://www.independentreporter.com/...aadvantage.html Just a tid bit...
Minimum wage earnings is from the Alberta Government site:
http://www3.gov.ab.ca/hre/employmen...ESGuide2001.pdf
If that does not work go to thier Employment standards site:
http://www3.gov.ab.ca/hre/employmen...ions/index.html
$5.90 per hour.

quote: Nope, they're provincial. BC's is something like $8/hour. Crazy. Leads to unemployment.

Myth totally a myth look at it this way while they eek out a living they are paying taxes, healthcare and adding to the economy. While they are starving and living on the street they are a tax burden which would you prefer? Do the math and average rent is $625.00 per month heh $8.00 yup crazy...

quote: Thoth Alcohol.

Exactly tells a very large story does it not

Back to smoking... owners of the businesses should call the shots here if they want a smoking establishment they should own one. Why should a customer tell you how to run your business?
If they post this is a smoking establishment then do not go in, do not tell me I can not because I want to smoke in thier establishment and they want me too. Now if it is such a health hazard why does the government allow the sale non perscription?

Why do they not pass a law demanding that tar and nicotine be reduced by 25% per year for the next four years? Think of it all smokers slowly wiened at the same time... On top of that no more addition for the future generations. Or better still demand they adopt the smokeless cigarette? Must be money, what is the cost of a life anyways and do they care?

I mean we have laws that make it illegal to kill ones self. We have laws demanding seat beats for safety. We have helmet laws, lifejacket laws, new laws saying it is abuse to smoke around children, you can not even have assisted suicides nope against the law, safety laws everywhere yet we can smoke something that is known to kill people. They still do nothing except raise the taxes kind of like gasoline...what is wrong with this picture? Seems to me if smoking is a known killer then the government is breaking the law allowing assisted suicides are they not? Explain to me the difference ask Kavorkian to do it today or do it myself over the next several years? Since I know the risks and accept it and still smoke is it not suicide is that not against the law...hummm

	07-03-2002 07:06									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I just wanted to say.. i understand smoking is bad for your health and the ppl around you..... but...... i smoke...... i'll come on out with it and own up....

	07-03-2002 09:22									#51
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by blackice Back to smoking... owners of the businesses should call the shots here if they want a smoking establishment they should own one. Why should a customer tell you how to run your business?

Because there's a thing called social cost. It's the same reason why you are not allowed to dump toxic waste.

Just remember that even the smokers, workers, and owners of such establishments are all covered by medical insurance, which is in turn footed by taxpayers.

I don't think it's unreasonable for a government to reduce such burdens.

	07-03-2002 09:32									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Because there's a thing called social cost. It's the same reason why you are not allowed to dump toxic waste.

Uhhh.... dumping toxic waste is illegal... smoking isn't.

I do think an owner has the right to determine what "legal" actions should be allowed in his place of business. It is ok for the government to limit it on government property, that's their choice.

But to tell somebody they can't allow smoking is just crap.
If they want to make laws determining that there has to be a clear division of smoking sections vs non smoking... the amount of ventilation required... fine. But to tell a bar owner that nobody is allowed to smoke in his/her establishment is a joke.

If you don't like clubs that are filled with smoke... DON'T GO.

I personally never smoke in non smoking areas... in front of my kids or other kids... and when people tell me it bothers them.
I understand and I try to be considerate of others. But when I sit in a smoking section of a resturant, and somebody takes a table in the smoking section because it was faster to get a table that way... AND THEN ASKS ME TO PUT OUT THE CIG... I laugh in their face. Smokers have rights too... it is STILL A LEGAL product... just like many other harmful products...

	07-03-2002 09:33									#53
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Because there's a thing called social cost. It's the same reason why you are not allowed to dump toxic waste.

Or drive cars, manufacture pollution we could go on here...I do not see them ordering by law car makers to stop killing us you?

quote: Just remember that even the smokers, workers, and owners of such establishments are all covered by medical insurance, which is in turn footed by taxpayers.

And they are what tax exempt

quote: I don't think it's unreasonable for a government to reduce such burdens.

Me either lets start with cars...

	07-03-2002 14:21									#54
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny Try opening your eyes.

I´ve tried that but the smoke irritated my corneas

	07-03-2002 14:43									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave The tax burden should obviously be higher to acommodate the cost burden that smoking brings to everybody. In my neck of the woods, it's about 4$us a pack, and I would definitely favor a 3$ increase in taxation alone. Keep in mind I'm a light smoker right now(down to about 1-2 packs a week) who's trying to quit for good. Hitting someone like me directly in the pocketbook is the most effective way to reduce/slash smoking. Dave

Hell Dave, I'll hit you in the pocketbook so hard that you'll never be able to afford another cigarette in your life. Would that make you happy?

	07-03-2002 14:53									#56
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Sik, The problem with that model is it ignores the social cost of sidestream ("second-hand") smoking. If the harmful effects of that is taken into account, smokers do incur a lot more expenses than non-smokers.

That cost is very hard to quantify, especially when some of the most famous and oft quoted second-hand smoke studies are bogus. The cost of second hand smoke is extremely variable from person to person. A lot of people never smoke indoors because their spouse doesn't smoke, or they have children. Additionally, in a country like the U.S. where the government doesn't pay for a huge percentage of medical costs, what is the logic in taxing Joe Blow for smoking because he is harming his son Joe Jr., when Joe Jr. is going to be paying his own health care costs, and perhaps paying them with an inheritance depleted by Joe Blow Sr.'s cigarette tax payments? Joe Jr. gets screwed twice.

	07-03-2002 18:21									#57
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ming I personally never smoke in non smoking areas... in front of my kids or other kids... and when people tell me it bothers them. I understand and I try to be considerate of others. But when I sit in a smoking section of a resturant, and somebody takes a table in the smoking section because it was faster to get a table that way... AND THEN ASKS ME TO PUT OUT THE CIG... I laugh in their face. Smokers have rights too... it is STILL A LEGAL product... just like many other harmful products...

You sound like a considerate smoker, so I guess you are unfairly judged because of the actions of inconsiderate smokers.

A couple of them have posted several times in this thread.

But hey, so long as they think they have a wonderful sense of humour it's alright.

	07-03-2002 23:18									#58
	Support Apolyton

Give us a kiss, honey.

A serious point- Why should we be forced to wrap ourselves in cotton wool? Should we also be banned from driving cars? Or climbing cliffs?

Should we be fined if we fail to eat enough green vegetables and oily fish? Think of all the taxes being eaten up by treating colon cancers- one of the biggest killers that (unlike lung cancer) is on the increase in the western world.

Should we be locked up if we spend all our leisure time sat on our arses in front of PC's instead of going out jogging?

Do we, to be blunt, want the state to be a nanny in jackboots?

	07-03-2002 23:20									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny Give us a kiss, honey. A serious point- Why should we be forced to wrap ourselves in cotton wool? Should we also be banned from driving cars? Or climbing cliffs? Should we be fined if we fail to eat enough green vegetables and oily fish? Think of all the taxes being eaten up by treating colon cancers- one of the biggest killers that (unlike lung cancer) is on the increase in the western world. Should we be locked up if we spend all our leisure time sat on our arses in front of PC's instead of going out jogging? Do we, to be blunt, want the state to be a nanny in jackboots?

Do what you want so long as it doesn't impose a cost on me/others.

	07-03-2002 23:23									#60
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Can I have a refund of my taxes that went on your education?