06-03-2002 14:11									#1
	What should be done with smokers? Increase Your PM Length

Perhaps they should get their own nation. I say we create 2 zones in the United States. A smoking section and a non-smoking section. Well put the smokers in the south east . And us non smokers can live in the north or the west.

yes this is rant. I have nothing against smokers. In fact almost everyone I know smokes. I live in a smoking town. We endorse smoking in our city.

But what I dislike is sharing health insurance with smokers. The doctors in our city are leaving my city and state because they can't afford malpractice insurance. The only solution I see is them raising rates which will raise insurance rates. In the future I see medical insurance as something that only the upper middle class and the rich can afford.

I really don't want to lose my insurance in case I get in some sort of accident. But why should I pay more money to pay for smokers killing themselves? I am perfectly healthy. And before anyone says it, I eat very little red meat, I am not overweight, and I excersize regularly.

I think healthy people should have separate health insurance. completely voluntary of course. We wouldn't want to create some sort of fascist society.

Speaking of. How is it like in Canada? I would consider moving there (although I can't pass that darned requirements test ) if that were the only place I could get health insurance. Is the health care system in danger there? I can't see how they keep up with skyrocketing health care costs.

	06-03-2002 14:15									#2
	Re: What should be done with smokers? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Dissident Speaking of. How is it like in Canada? I would consider moving there (although I can't pass that darned requirements test ) if that were the only place I could get health insurance. Is the health care system in danger there? I can't see how they keep up with skyrocketing health care costs.

Depending who you ask, it's in danger or it's fine.
Personally I think it needs a major overhauling.

Alberta's changing how healthcare works, trying to set an example for other provinces to follow (the slogan is "Health care: Alberta's emerging advantage). They just released a massive report on how to improve healthcare, and the province is following the recommendations made to the letter.

But I don't think it's in danger. I've lived in both the US and Canada and dealt with both healthcare systems a bit. We had less waiting to do when living in the states, because we could afford to get the good treatment fast. The waits are longer here in general, but it's all "free". If it's life-threatening illness the waittime is usually the same in the US/Canada, it's optional surgeries (like my wrist surgery) that have long waiting lists.

	06-03-2002 14:22									#3
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Don't smokers use less health care because of their premature death?

	06-03-2002 14:25									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Drekkus Don't smokers use less health care because of their premature death?

No, because they're treated for things like lung cancer while they're still alive first.

	06-03-2002 14:26									#5
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You are gaining (on average) in retirement bonuses that smokers won't be around to collect as well as all that geriatric care that eats up so much of the nations healthcare budget. Smokers tend to die off just when they would normally become very expensive.

	06-03-2002 14:27									#6
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Hasn't Ca. banned smoking in nightclubs or something radical like that? Although terribly unrealistic, that would be fantastic!

	06-03-2002 14:28									#7
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Hasn't Ca. banned smoking in nightclubs or something radical like that? Although terribly unrealistic, that would be fantastic!

The town I lived in in California banned smoking in public places. Period. It was awesome (I don't smoke )

Here in Calgary, Canada, they recently banned smoking in the presence of minors. Which means smoking sections in restaurants (many are non-smoking exclusively, more switching all the time) cannot allow minors inside.

	06-03-2002 14:30									#8
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hey an optimistic point of view (possibly pessimistic for smokers )

smokers die therefore using less of my social security.

interesting.

OK this thread is useless now. I suppose it all evens out in the end

	06-03-2002 14:31									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Asher No, because they're treated for things like lung cancer while they're still alive first.

Everyone dies of something, but smokers do it sooner, saving tons of money in retirement payouts and hip replacements etc. The geriatric years are extremely expensive to the overall healthcare budget. Smokers save money in healthcare, pensions and they pay enormous taxes to boot.

	06-03-2002 14:32									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Everyone dies of something, but smokers do it sooner, saving tons of money in retirement payouts and hip replacements etc. The geriatric years are extremely expensive to the overall healthcare budget. Smokers save money in healthcare, pensions and they pay enormous taxes to boot.

It was my understanding that treating things like lung cancer was considerably more expensive than treating things like hip replacements. Not to mention the people who live long enough to have lung cancer, and need hip replacements, and live off pensions, etc.

	06-03-2002 14:32									#11
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Free? in Alberta? No you pay for Healthcare by way of premiums and they are going up. Now for a province that has all that cash hummm yup they are showing the rest of the privinces how to gouge the public for sure. In Ontario and most all other provinces it is FREE. We pay nothing at all that is free. As for smokers taxing the healthcare system:

quote: Crusaders argue that smokers are draining state and federal healthcare programs and must be forced to pay their way. But this argument is specious. Duke University economics professor W. Kip Viscusi has just completed a study for the National Bureau of Economic Research which estimates that tobacco-related social costs averaging 43 cents per pack are more than compensated by the current average state and federal taxes of 53 cents per pack. Viscusi's findings confirm the conclusion of a 1989 study from the Rand Corporation and the University of Michigan: cigarette smokers already pay their way. In addition, Viscusi argues that because smokers die younger than nonsmokers -- our research shows that smokers lose almost 8 years of life on average -- they may actually benefit society by siphoning fewer dollars from Social Security, Medicare, and private pensions. Crusaders claim that increasing excise taxes suppresses cigarette sales, and indeed consumption apparently falls off after tax hikes. Legal consumption, that is. Because in virtually every market where taxes have been increased, a booming black market has followed. Consider the mess created by the Canadian government in the late 1980's by an increase in taxes that drove cigarette prices up to $4.00 a pack. By 1993 a $5 billion smuggling industry was in full swing, with contraband smokes totaling 20-25% of all cigarettes sold in Canada. Taxes were slashed in 1994, and smuggling activity decreased by 90%. The Canadian experience is being repeated in several states where taxes have made smuggling economically feasible. California's high tax costs the state as much as $68 million in lost revenue. In early 1995 one of the largest cigarette-smuggling operations in the U.S. was uncovered in Los Angeles. The estimated cost to the California treasury from this single black market enterprise was $7 million. Last November Arizona raised its cigarette tax by 40 cents a pack. In March of this year state revenue agents confiscated 7,400 cartons of cigarettes from a bootlegger's truck. An official was quoted as saying that the goal for fighting cigarette-smuggling was to "nip it in the bud." Tip of the iceberg might have been a more accurate description.

http://www.dental.uab.edu/patientIn...y/articles.html

Many more studies have been done to the same conclusion smokers pay more into the system than non smokers. Maybe they should just put a cap on lawsuits. That intern would reduce or cap insurance.

	06-03-2002 14:35									#12
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quote: Originally posted by blackice Free? in Alberta? No you pay for Healthcare by way of premiums and they are going up. Now for a province that has all that cash hummm yup they are showing the rest of the privinces how to gouge the public for sure. In Ontario and most all other provinces it is FREE. We pay nothing at all that is free.

No, it's not free, you pay for it with huge taxes and things like provincial sales tax. Nothing is free, that's why it's in quotes.

Alberta has no provincial sales tax. All other provinces do, that's where your healthcare premiums come from, among other things. Your provincial income tax is also significantly higher than ours.

We end up paying the same for healthcare as everyone else, but the federal government tries to tell other provinces otherwise: "See, Alberta pays SPECIFICALLY for health care! EVIL!" Don't see them mentioning the fact that it's because we don't have a sales tax and have really low income tax...

Here are some numbers for you to munch on: http://www.info.ede.org/business/bu...antage-col.html

quote: On average, Alberta families pay nearly 34 per cent less in provincial taxes and health care premiums than other Canadian families, according to Alberta Economic Development. A typical Alberta family spends $937 less than British Columbia families and $1,394 less than Ontario families due to the absence of a retail sales tax in Alberta, according to Alberta Economic Development.

Don't be so quick to bash the premiums because you don't understand them.

	06-03-2002 14:42									#13
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I also wanted to mention in this thread about the effort to raise taxes in the U.S. states. of cigarrettes.

My state is considering it. Utah approved an 18 cent raise in cig taxes. Washington already approved a raise. Seattle and New York city pay enourmous amounts of money for a single pack of cigarrettes.

Here's the only argument against it: most smokers are lower middle class and poor. This only hurts them.

Not much of an argument but it is a valid point.

How high should and can taxes be raised?

discuss

	06-03-2002 14:50									#14
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Funny how some people crusade against smoking but are for legalising smoking pot. If this trend continues, cigarettes will become illegal and joints legal, because there's less tabaco in them.

	06-03-2002 14:54									#15
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and the problem with that is....?

	06-03-2002 15:08									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident and the problem with that is....?

There's no problem in legalizing smoking dope. It's criminalizing ordinary smokers. I think it's now established that second hand smoke is as dangerous as eating a cookie. What right does the government have to tax a luxury item like smokes.

In europe sigarettes are very heavily taxed. Reason: it's bad for you and therefor should be discouraged. But until now high taxes have not seen a significant decrease in smoking.

	06-03-2002 15:14									#17
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What should be done ?

KILL THEM ALL !!

	06-03-2002 15:20									#18
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dp and buggered up edit

	06-03-2002 15:21									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's I have no problem with people smoking cigarettes just so long as I don't breathe the **** they exhale or that burns off the cigarette into the air. There is a growing movement on campus now.

	06-03-2002 15:22									#20
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I beleive that all smokers can and should be cured.
























I favor sugar curing, myself.

	06-03-2002 16:32									#21
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Isnīt smoking banned in public buildings (bars, restaurangs, etc) all over the states? Or is it just California?

	06-03-2002 17:34									#22
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The reason that governments keep raising taxes on cigarettes (besides the fact that they can while people will still keep buying them) is that the cost of health-care for smokers is much more than that of non-smokers.

	06-03-2002 18:09									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns The reason that governments keep raising taxes on cigarettes (besides the fact that they can while people will still keep buying them) is that the cost of health-care for smokers is much more than that of non-smokers.

That is more myth than reality. The vast majority of health care dollars are spent keeping very old retired people alive and collecting their pension. Even though smokers tend to be less healthy than other people (and often for reasons not directly related to their smoking) they tend to be unhealthy during the earlier years of their lives, when the consequences for it are a lot less troublesome / expensive.

Most people who die from smoking related illness do so from heart disease, which has a very good chance of taking someone out in one fell swoop. Lung cancer tends to be fatal as well, which means that there is a period of intense medical activity followed by a fatality. These people tend to be younger than their non-smoking compatriots who die from the same diseases, which means that they are less likely to have used up health care dollars for things in the interim. Older people use vast sums of money for the drugs that alleviate the symptoms of their ever growing list of ailments. They also tend to have a lot of joint replacements, and in the end often end up totally dependent in nursing homes for the last years of their lives. The cost of a lung cancer death at 68 is cheaper than all the medical costs for an average person between 68 and 83.

	06-03-2002 18:20									#24
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The tax burden should obviously be higher to acommodate the cost burden that smoking brings to everybody. In my neck of the woods, it's about 4$us a pack, and I would definitely favor a 3$ increase in taxation alone. Keep in mind I'm a light smoker right now(down to about 1-2 packs a week) who's trying to quit for good. Hitting someone like me directly in the pocketbook is the most effective way to reduce/slash smoking.

Dave

	06-03-2002 19:04									#25
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Albertans have a higher cost of living than those in the Maritimes. In the most recent study of the Consumer Price Index, Statscan found that Alberta had a CPI of 114.6, higher than all PEI, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick which had CPIs of 109.4, 112 and 110.4. Considering these facts alone, Alberta's minimum wage should be at $6.10 for Albertan's working minimum wage jobs to enjoy the same standard of living as workers earning the same wage, for example, in PEI.

quote: Don't be so quick to bash the premiums because you don't understand them.

First I lived there for 22 years I understand them completely.
Second you have a high cost of living compared provincially even to BC Any Government propaganda is simply lost on me. Check stats Canada for your "Alberta Advantage".Second it is not free here or there yet you keep selling it is free you pay out of pocket with what $120.00 per quarter or has it increased?

quote: No, because they're treated for things like lung cancer while they're still alive first.

Leaked government documents show in fact the Federal Government is not concerned about that for the mere fact it cost's more to healthcare for an elderly person than a smoker and for longer. Second national average is it cost 37 cents per pack healthcare costs in tax. The reality is the tax is 57 cents so extra money for healthcare. Smokers not only pay thier fair share they pay a portion of yours too. I think that is why they continue to sell an over the counter deadly drug to it's citizens. Unlike any other say diet pill, cigarettes continue to be sold and are unregulated. Name another deadly drug or substance that is still sold that is proven to kill, over the counter yet.

quote: The waits are longer here in general, but it's all "free".

Waits are longer everywhere from cut backs not from smokers.

Dave taking case studies like Ontario increasing the cost increased the blackmarket share. The end result is less money for healthcare.

	06-03-2002 20:18									#26
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Sik,

The problem with that model is it ignores the social cost of sidestream ("second-hand") smoking.

If the harmful effects of that is taken into account, smokers do incur a lot more expenses than non-smokers.

	06-03-2002 20:34									#27
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Dave taking case studies like Ontario increasing the cost increased the blackmarket share. The end
result is less money for healthcare.


They may be partially true-health costs may not be completely recouped. I am looking at such a dramatic taxation from two perspectives.

1) reduction, maybe not elimination, of usage ,especially in the lighter smokers like me.

But more importantly,
2) dissuasion of the biggest market that tobacco companies go after most- teen smokers.

Obviously, from the example of the failed drug war, this is not a panacea. But, I've witnessed so many smoking casualties first-hand that I feel something dramatic must be undertaken.

Dave

	06-03-2002 22:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by blackice Albertans have a higher cost of living than those in the Maritimes. In the most recent study of the Consumer Price Index, Statscan found that Alberta had a CPI of 114.6, higher than all PEI, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick which had CPIs of 109.4, 112 and 110.4. Considering these facts alone, Alberta's minimum wage should be at $6.10 for Albertan's working minimum wage jobs to enjoy the same standard of living as workers earning the same wage, for example, in PEI.

Again, you forget the difference in taxation which allows for Albertans to have that extra income to spend on things.

$6.10? That's not much different from the current $5.90. But I don't know anyone around here that hires at $5.90. McDonalds hires at $7, Superstore hires at $8.50, etc. There's actually still a shortage of low paying workers like highschool students so the wages are pretty nice.

quote: First I lived there for 22 years I understand them completely. Second you have a high cost of living compared provincially even to BC Any Government propaganda is simply lost on me. Check stats Canada for your "Alberta Advantage".Second it is not free here or there yet you keep selling it is free you pay out of pocket with what $120.00 per quarter or has it increased?

I'm comparing it to the States, where it is not "free". There they deal with HMOs and people's care is dependent on what they can afford. Here, the government will pay for the essential healthcare, thus "free", but still not free.

The reason why the maritimes have lower CPIs is because of the low incomes on average. I'm pretty sure it has to do with the government aid they get, too.

I can't find anything to back up your BC argument, though.
I keep finding more and more things to support my argument...
http://www.gov.nb.ca/immigration/english/live/house.htm
http://www.info.ede.org/amenities/cost-provinces.html
http://www.calgarytechnologies.com/.../advantage.html

BTW, I don't pay any health premiums. My father's employer pays them for our family.

	06-03-2002 22:52									#29
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Lovely fags.

	06-03-2002 22:52									#30
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Suck on them.