09-01-2001 10:14									#1
	Great thinkers are as important as great generals Got spare money?

In another thread there was a post about mini "Cultural Wonders" that started me thinking. So many of the cultural wonders in history are the result of great thinkers who pop up at a certain time and place and, because of the civilization in place at the time, flourish. Much like great generals who get their first big break by being in the right place at the right time and having the "right stuff" to be able to seize the day.

If generals are going to "pop up" every once in a while (if they're going to be built I lose a bit of steam, but bear with me) then why can't great thinkers pop up every so often as well? People like Homer or Christopher Wren. In RL these people inspired thought and altered (slightly) the course of civilizations.

What do people think of great thinkers who act like short-term "mini-wonders" with much smaller bonuses that you don't build, but rather "just happen" if you set the conditions correctly (and get a little lucky). So if you have a League of City States governance structure, you've got your luxury cranked, and you sustain X number of years of peace, you set the conditions for Homer, and if he is "born", you get a 10(?) turn bonus to diplomacy(inspires rhetoriticians?) and cheaper naval vessels (all those inspired wanna-be Ullyses putting to sea). Frank Lloyd Wright gets you a boom in inspired architecture and thus cheaper buildings for a while.

The effects of these "Great Thinkers" should be short term and give small bonuses so as to preserve balance. But they could be the cultural equivalent of the generals that I guess will be cropping up once in a while. Just as it would be neat to have Joan of Arc appear in the countryside and rally your forces, it would be cool to have Voltaire appear in your capital and give your intellectual base a boost (i.e. a bonus to the effectiveness of your legal system if you've got a democracy and Voltaire appears).

Of course, these things cut both ways. If you've got government by an elite class (high luxury, high taxes) and an oppressed populace that has x amount of discontent ... can anyone say Che Guevara?

You could even tie the name of the "great thinker" into the civlization skin you've chosen (if such things exist). So if you've chosen to play a North Asian civ you may get Lao Tsu, if you play South Asian you get Bhudda, if you play Arabian you get Mohammed etc. - all of them have the same civ effect (founding a major religion and thus giving you, what, morale bonuses?) and all of them have an equal chance to appear in similar circumstances.

Whadda ya think?

[This message has been edited by Echinda (edited January 09, 2001).]

	09-01-2001 20:41									#2
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Thumbs up for your suggestion! I like to keep the peaceful part of Civ at least at the same relevance as the military: mankind didn't evolve only because of war.

While in game turn a single leader/thinker will live really few turns, his/her influence will live a lot longer, so effects should vary in time lenght, not only in relevance, depending on game "background": political situation, social settings etc.

In SMAC we have something similar with special event (e.g. burst of energy) that can be good or bad depending of your cities developement, but they have usually too little effects to bother any strong player, nor the ability to really help soeone in difficult position to recover. Balancing it is difficult, but a real must to make it a succesful game part.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	09-01-2001 23:59									#3
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Adm. basically I agree, but remember it was Nietzsche a great thinker himslef, who said that war is exactly the reason behind mankind's evolvement and growth.

Well, not exactly, I'm exaggurating his sayings but you can't argue, if a great thinker himself is saying the generals are more imortant

	10-01-2001 12:20									#4
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These ideas are good and all, but they are already more or less implicitly in the game. specialists/riots...
However, it would be cool if there was a little bit of spice involved in it, ie. your ideas...

	10-01-2001 21:50									#5
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Sirotnikov, lot of old leaders where militar and and thinker in a less militaristic view. I never properly studied philosophy, so you won't drag me in any discussion about Nietzsche et al.

Cannes, specialist are more about people class or job: we are speaking of "special (human) events" that happens more scarcely, like a great earthquake, or a big vulcano eruption, and affects all the "surrounding" people for a quite long time.

Compare Napoleon to the more common class of "generals", or Leonardo da Vinci or Galileo to the generic scientists.

Someone have the brightest idea and do influence, lot of others are needed to properly develop it.
On another point of view, in a Civ game we replay history: think about who, and why, usually appears on history books.

	11-01-2001 00:09									#6
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I agree.
There's a lot of thinkers who changed history at least as often as generals. Think about, say, Karl Marx. Would there have been the same Russian Revolution (if this even would have taken place) with Lenin and Trotzki (a "general")?

Thinkers to the front!

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the things, they have a-changed

There's a lot o' people who just shouldn't walk around for free...You, for example.
[This message has been edited by Markus The Mighty (edited January 10, 2001).]

	11-01-2001 03:47									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Oh, BTW I was searching on threads into "Civ3 - idea for Firaxis" when I saw "great scientists" concept was already mentioned here

Better Firaxis will publish soon the real game, or we'll dead chewing the same old suggestion again and again...
[This message has been edited by Adm.Naismith (edited January 10, 2001).]

	11-01-2001 05:46									#8
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That's the problem with closed threads - newbies like me never think to look in them.

Here is hoping that Firaxis has already picked up this idea and run with it.

	11-01-2001 17:16									#10
	Remove this text

I like this idea better than the current position of racing to build a one-off scientific wonder which has a massive effect and lasts for generations. Key scientist pieces can appear in and enhance the research abilities of a pro-science city. They could then be influenced to emigrate by diplomatic approaches and would weigh up their national pride against such factors as government type, city prestige and luxury rate. Spies can always use more ruthless means.

Having a good academic infrastructure, high luxury rate and unoppressive government could encourage the appearance of all sort of non-military leader types. Dropping the luxury rate to zero because JS Bach's Cathedral is keeping everyone content could be a sensible game move in the past but disastrous if all your leaders start leaving for nicer parts of the world

	12-01-2001 00:18									#11
	Put an end to popups!

why not make it somewhat like Colonization's Continental Congress? Expand upon it. Maybe choose a smaller number of advisors for your high council from a larger number. The individuals giving you advice could also give you special benefits. A not terribly great example would be, maybe you don't want a secretary of defense. And combine these ideas with those of others. New choices become available as the game moves on, or with changes you make, and give the advisors the opportunity to defect.