07-03-2002 04:01									#31
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quote: Not sure what you mean by "more moderate"; anyone the LP puts up as a candidate is going to be a hard-core libertarian, almost by definition. I do hope that we can find one who'll run a better campaign than Browne did.

I mean someone that doesn't campaign under the foolish, moronic platform of eliminating income taxes. You know, stuff like that.

	07-03-2002 04:31									#32
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Did you expect his rhetoric about taking down "bariffs and terriers" anything other than empty?

Still, tariffs are small potatoes compared to non-tariffal trade barriers, which few politicians, Republican or Democrat, suggest taking down.

	07-03-2002 04:42									#33
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quote: Could someone address the possible use of subsidies and dumping by foreign steel, that these tariffs could've been reacting to?

Trade wars are bad. They lead to nasty things like the Great Depression.

	07-03-2002 04:43									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But of course.. Oh, interestingly the steel tariffs aren't on developing nations (or Canada and Mexico... which may be the same thing ). At least he put that in. Damn those unions! They make me mad

Under NAFTA, if he'd tried to impose illegal tariffs on our steel exports at the same time as he was doing so to our softwood lumber exports we would have the legal right (and obligation) to "stuff him full of bees, pull up a lawn-chair and enjoy the show" (Sec. 9, Par. 3A).

As well, the developing nations he's exempted export minuscule amount of steel to the US, so he gets to look generous while not giving up anything substantive.

So, when can we expect you to force us to bring suit in front of the WTO and win our 5th straight decision on lumber? Apparently your trade secretary doesn't even bother returning our minister's phone calls...

	07-03-2002 04:50									#35
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Lots of european Industries are subsidized bye there governments as are American agriculture. That is of course, also unfair. But the US steel industries are in deep crises. It may pass. But I dont think so. In the end, they just may go broke. Steel from Asia is shitloads Cheaper, and European steel is moderately price. With us out of the Steel game soon, we should now watch those two go at it. edit: I do agree this is against capitalism.

Well even if the whole steel industry goes bankrupth is that still in the long run better.

Because that way will every country be forced to do the industries it is the best or cheapest in, that will reduce the price and raise the quality of the goods produced world wide. Which means more productivity and more wealth.

Also don't forget that the American companies who make products from steel will have to pay more for there steel because of those tariffs, that will place them in an unfair possition towards the foreignt manufactures who can get there steel cheaper.

	07-03-2002 05:00									#36
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quote: Still, tariffs are small potatoes compared to non-tariffal trade barriers, which few politicians, Republican or Democrat, suggest taking down.

Some non-tariff barriers are not something a lot of people would want to get rid of (such as safety requirements for products, etc.).

	07-03-2002 05:05									#37
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quote: Some non-tariff barriers are not something a lot of people would want to get rid of (such as safety requirements for products, etc.).

I'm more referring to barriers such as trade quotas.

	07-03-2002 05:25									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Bush just raised tariffs on steel by (I think) 30% to 'protect domestic steel producers. The EU is definetly going to retaliate, as is Japan, Brazil and China. What a stupid move, and what makes it worse is Bush was saying he's committed to free trade! MY ASS HE IS!

This has been a long way coming.

Trade wars were very frequent during the democrats too.

But Bush seems to be a hard cookie, tries to hit the knife with his fist you could say...

Anyway US and EU had been discussing about this for almost 2 years now and Bush comes along and *puff* any negotioation is destroyed and he just slams the tarifs on the table


Ok, I have to say this, he's a cowboy yes?

Seriously, no extreme harm done. the US has been using protectionist policies since day 1. It shows more now because they europeans are in a very strong position to relaliate.

I believe that the US is still searching for a way to deal with this new beast called the EU on what regards economic matters.


Bush reacted his usual way.

EU will retaliate.

But it is not the first time... trade wars between the two "power blocks" have been going on for much longer.

the WTO has ruled on quite a few of them (and IIRC the US has lost most of them...)


I mean there was an 100% tarrif on all sorts of things from european cheese to leather

But yes steel is much more serious.

Oh well, eventually we will reach a balance and sort these things amicably I hope.

	07-03-2002 05:54									#39
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bad job, Bush. Acting like a demo...

(GPhere)

	07-03-2002 06:06									#40
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HI GP!

how's the shoulder?

	07-03-2002 06:29									#41
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slowly getting better.

I can still work and ski. Just can't use poles yet.

	07-03-2002 07:37									#42
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Whatcha working at?

	07-03-2002 09:35									#43
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This decision sucks and it points towards more BS protectionist farm bills. I just hope Bush was smart enough to get as much or more value out of Senator Byrd in order to do it.

	07-03-2002 15:11									#44
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The EU has eliminated most steel subsidies during the 90s, and the industry has restructured. There's still overcapacity, but restructuring and mergers go on. The Usinor+Aceralia+?? merger will create a 40 million tons company. Betsie is at... 5 ? 8 ? Not sure. When I looked for their revenue nrs, wasn't much above that of Austrian Alpine, which is a small highly specialised steelmaker.

So maybe a bit of market action wouldn't hurt the US for once.

	07-03-2002 16:14									#45
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse So, when can we expect you to force us to bring suit in front of the WTO and win our 5th straight decision on lumber? Apparently your trade secretary doesn't even bother returning our minister's phone calls...

In fairness he was confused and a bit intimidated about taking a call from the "Minister of Wood".

	07-03-2002 16:15									#46
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They're still scared of anything resembling Gore ?

	07-03-2002 16:32									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Roland They're still scared of anything resembling Gore ?

	07-03-2002 19:47									#48
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quote: what does the US export these days?

Weapons, films and lawyers....

Seriously, I read somewhere that the US is exporting more than 100 billion dollars worth of legal advice annually.

	07-03-2002 19:59									#49
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Bad idea, Bush. This is liable to hurt us more than it helps us with respect to foreign protectionism. Moreover, every domestic producer and his brother is going to be lining up hat in hand for some kind of relief. The only minor grace is that it would have been far worse with Gore/Gephart in charge.

I agree with Ramo that there rare still plenty of US barriers which should be removed, such as sugar and textile quotas. Quotas tend to be worse, because they often cause even a greater restriction on supply.

Axi:

quote: I read somewhere that the US is exporting more than 100 billion dollars worth of legal advice annually.

Excellent. Our campaign for world domination is going exactly as planned.

	07-03-2002 20:04									#50
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"Seriously, I read somewhere that the US is exporting more than 100 billion dollars worth of legal advice annually."

This wouldn't surprise me, if you do your counting of "exports" very broadly to include legal advice rendered to American subsidiaries of international companies. FYI, $100 billion would be about half (?) of all legal services rendered in the US.

	07-03-2002 20:05									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion why didn't you guys elect Gore? the rest of the world will make him pay

We did elect Gore! That's what sucks about America. Bush was basically appointed president by the Florida State Supreme court. What I find hilarious, is that all this stuff happened in the state where his brother is governor. Coincidence? I think not.

	08-03-2002 02:59									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Sava We did elect Gore! That's what sucks about America. Bush was basically appointed president by the Florida State Supreme court. What I find hilarious, is that all this stuff happened in the state where his brother is governor. Coincidence? I think not.

What I find hilarious is that you think the Florida State Supreme Court appointed Bush as president. The Florida Supremes supported GORE; it was the United States Supreme Court that supported Bush.

I think Gore got screwed too, but damn man, get your facts straight. And try to avoid calling Muslims "an infestation" in the future. It makes you look like a jackass.

	08-03-2002 05:43									#53
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http://slate.msn.com/?id=2062852

Article from Slate that explains why these tariffs are legal. So this should hold up against any appeals to the WTO?


Except...

quote: Contrary to the protestations of the steel industry and many politicians (including President Bush and Robert Zoellick, the Bush administration's trade representative), Bush's decision wasn't caused by "unfair" foreign trade practices such as "dumping" steel in the United States at below-market prices or propping up industries with illegal subsidies. Rather, Bush invoked an infrequently used U.S. law known as "Section 201" (named after the relevant portion of the 1974 trade act) that's designed to protect U.S. industries from an onslaught of fair trade. The law, which is an accepted part of international trade agreements, allows the United States to protect a domestic industry that's suffering from the competition caused by a wave of fairly traded foreign imports.

	08-03-2002 06:16									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DanS This decision sucks and it points towards more BS protectionist farm bills. I just hope Bush was smart enough to get as much or more value out of Senator Byrd in order to do it.

I live in farm country. A lot of farmers around here are trying to figure out why crop prices have plummeted since the mid-1990s while the cost at the grocery store continues to climb.

I remember a time when soybeans were getting $6 plus per bushel. Nowadays farmers are lucky to get $4 a bushel. Same goes for corn and wheat. I guess the agri-giants like getting el cheapo South American soybeans, et al., while sticking it to U.S. farmers and consumers at the same time.

Those are just my surface impressions. I'm sure there's a very good reason for the collapsing commodity prices and prices at the grocery stores that never seem to decrease, but increase.

CYBERAmazon

	08-03-2002 07:40									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Faeelin I think the tariffs are wrong, and I think it's even worse how he does this but lets American companies use Chinese rocketry to launch satellites. Brilliant Bush. On the other hand, the tariffs don't apply to Mexico. Could this be part of a scheme to stem immigration, develop mexico, and create another power on the American continent? Oh wait, it's Bush.

At least he didn't accept campaign funds from the Chinese Communists.



Also, I think he's on the right track with Mexico. It doesn't make any sense to have the worlds wealthiest country right next to one of the poorer countries. (last I checked, Mexico was equal to Indonesia in economic strength, which probaly means the standard of living is higher, but still...)


Put this protectionist steel hooya maybe a bit too much for me. (on the other hand, if the EU is still screwing around with Banana Tarifs and textile tariffs, maybe this will slap some sense into them)

	08-03-2002 08:28									#56
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower i wasn't even aware we had a steel industry anymore why can't we just let some little backwater country do that stuff for us while we make hi tech stuff? oh wait, we let taiwan do that for us too. what does the US export these days?

Buggy PC software.

	08-03-2002 08:34									#57
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Dubya is a silly person.

Just because he slammed imported steel doesn't mean affected countries will slam US steel.

Now they can target where the US hurts, such as computer software, agricultural produce, pharmaceuticals, and so forth.

BTW it's South Korea that will retaliate, though I didn't know the Ozzies export so much steel to the US a year.

	08-03-2002 14:23									#58
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100 billion $ exports in US legal services ? I knew the US entertainment industry is big, but I didn't know it's that big....

About the legality:

"The law, which is an accepted part of international trade agreements, allows the United States to protect a domestic industry that's suffering from the competition caused by a wave of fairly traded foreign imports."

This is put in an extremely sloppy and misleading way. "the law" is not "part" of the respective agreements. It is AFAIK not even the subject of an explicit waiver or similar clause.

But yes, you can act against "disruptive" imports. But you may want to check the clause. With all the WTO agreements it's rather messy, but in principle we should still be at the old GATT:

Art XIX section 1 GATT 1947:

quote: If, as a result of unforeseen developments and of the effect of the obligations incurred by a contracting party under this Agreement, including tariff concessions, any product is being imported into the territory of that contracting party in such increased quantities and under such conditions as to cause or threaten serious injury to domestic producers in that territory of like or directly competitive products, the contracting party shall be free, in respect of such product, and to the extent and for such time as may be necessary to prevent or remedy such injury, to suspend the obligation in whole or in part or to withdraw or modify the concession.

This or a provision modelled after this one should be in question here. So, free-trade agreements allow such a thing UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS. Well, what was unforeseen ? Aren't imports already falling after the asian crisis glut ? How is it related to the opening of markets ? The crisis is in the lack of restructuring and bancruptcies among the old bloated steelmakers, and in the silly overvalued dollar (based on a US economic policy relying more on asset bubbles than on actually producing something).

So that'll take a lot of explaining from the US to defend this before the WTO.

	08-03-2002 17:34									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer What I find hilarious is that you think the Florida State Supreme Court appointed Bush as president. The Florida Supremes supported GORE; it was the United States Supreme Court that supported Bush. I think Gore got screwed too, but damn man, get your facts straight. And try to avoid calling Muslims "an infestation" in the future. It makes you look like a jackass.

LOL... I am a jackass, but at least I admit it.

All religion is an infestation. Maybe I should have been more clear. Muslims aren't any worse, in my eyes, than Catholics or Lutherans.

BTW, the Florida Supreme Court stopped the recount. I do have my facts straight you troll.

	08-03-2002 20:05									#60
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quote: Of course, he's a damned ape 51 No, he has a plan 2 Bananarama! 2

that says about enough.

Bush is such a damned liar and that if he wasn't that stupid I'd think he's doing it on purpose.

I certainly hope this leads to huge sanctions against the US, as the EU has already said it would impose. And make the promise to lift the sanctions as soon as Bush is deposed.