07-03-2002 05:43									#31
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

And you'd prefer to use the heavy hand of government to allow polluters to put their externalities on the shoulders of several billion people?

quote: So you basically use the heavy hand of government destroy an entire industry that employs more than 250,000 people...

Eh? Who said anything about destroying it? I'm not suggesting any penalty that's rediculous. I simply suggest a minor push in the right direction.

	07-03-2002 05:44									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Add to the fact that gasoline taxes hurt the poor much more than the rich, because the price is the same and the poor buy as much as the rich, while their proportion of the income stays the same.

That is the reason I'm against gas taxes, and increased taxes on producers that use gas.

	07-03-2002 05:48									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ramo And you'd prefer to use the heavy hand of government to allow polluters to put their externalities on the shoulders of several billion people?

And again. This goes back to the hideous, never ending merry go round. Does Global warming exist? Are Humans to blame? Etc.....but ill end that here. Its not the right thread to debate this in.

quote: Eh? Who said anything about destroying it? I'm not suggesting any penalty that's rediculous. I simply suggest a minor push in the right direction.

Well when we are all using fuel cells or electric cars.Who needs the Mobil Station? Why do would we drill? What about the thousands of truckers? Etc......

Owell..I have to go out to eat with my Girlfriend soon. I have to shower and stuff. So have a nice night!

	07-03-2002 06:13									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by faded glory Well when we are all using fuel cells or electric cars.Who needs the Mobil Station?

Depends on if the fuel cells could be charged in the owners home, or needed special attachments etc that would require an electric version of the Mobil Station.

quote: Why do would we drill?

Obviously not oil

quote: What about the thousands of truckers? Etc......

What about them?? Goods still need to be delivered, truckers are still needed to deliver those goods.
Sure, the trucks and cars would all need to be replaced, but these vehicles aren't meant to last forever, so at some point you would be replacing them anyway. Just replace it with a 'clean fuel' version.

	07-03-2002 06:25									#35
	Tired of ads?

If the problem is security risk from imported oil - tax imported oil - this will encourage all conservation methods, alternative sources, AND encourage more domestic production. Let the market decide the most efficient way

IF problem is CO2, tax carbon in fuels.

Tax breaks for "good" methods of production are problematic. You can give a tax break for a less energy intensive method of making widgets - but that doesnt give me any incentive to use less widgets - which for some goods or services may the best thing. A tax credit for fuel cell cars doesnt encourage me to walk, or take a shorter trip. You can try to devfelop an elaborate set of encouragements for any situation you can think of, but its much simpler to simply tax the "bad" thing, not subsidize the avoidance of the bad thing. And when it comes to govt action, simplicity is a virtue.

Adding a cost to an industry seems like overriding the market - but if that industry is imposing a cost on the rest of us, whether thats climate change or political-military vulnerability, it makes sense.

LOTM

	07-03-2002 06:30									#36
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Add to the fact that gasoline taxes hurt the poor much more than the rich, because the price is the same and the poor buy as much as the rich, while their proportion of the income stays the same. That is the reason I'm against gas taxes, and increased taxes on producers that use gas.

very simple - increase taxes on gas, and give a flat tax credit to low income people,or to all tax payers, so that the net impact is revenue neutral, and the tax cuts go to the same income class as the payers.

This doesnt solve the problem of equity between poor folks in Montana, who use lots of gas (and heating oil) and will still lose out, and poor folks in Harlem, who will get a windfall. No good way to deal with that, if we really institute economic incentives to use less gas. Only way out is to forget economic incentives, and use govt mandates like requiring more fuel efficient cars, but as mentioned elsewhere that fails to encourage what may be more economically efficient ways to reduce consumption.

LOTM

	07-03-2002 06:44									#37
	Re: How Should the US Reduce Petroleum Consumption? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The United States uses a whole lot of oil. Per person the rates very high; only Canada compares.

IIRC Ausralia is substatialy above USA & Canada in gasoline per capita, I do not recall a petroleum comparison. Numbers please.

	07-03-2002 11:06									#38
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I don't have Aussie numbers on hand, but for US, Canada, and some Eurocom nations... US and Canada use over 50 barrels of oil per capita, while Italy, UK, Belgium, Germany, Norway, Japan have barrels per oil between 20 and 35.

This is from World Statistics in Brief, United Nations Statistical Pocketbook, 14th Edition

	07-03-2002 11:33									#39
	Suffering from ads?

How should the US reduce oil consumption? Simple.

Vote in a government that cares for the environment-starting by having more people vote for Gore than for Bush.

Oh wait! We did.

	07-03-2002 11:40									#40
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

God, I'm glad Gore lost. What a moron. He would have just hiked gas prices 200% and this recession would be a depression, just like that.

	07-03-2002 12:27									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Coconuts, they work very well(i voted bananas as it was kinda close to Coconut). In the war in Bouganville, down near Papua New Guinea(North of Australia). The Rebel fighters of Bouganville facing a complete blockade by the PNG forces resorted to loads of cunning methods to keep up their fight for independence. One of which was refineing the Oil from a Coconut that then could be put straight into the 4x4's left on the Island.Apparantly it worked a treat and while the PNG forces camped on the Island suffered black out's from there faulty diesel generators, the Bouganville people had free Fuel for there car's and power! Very ingienious i think.Oh and apparantly it burns clean(compared to Oil).

Sounds like you watched the same documentary that I saw...

Banning SUV's would be a good start, as apart from seriously wasting fuel your average SUV driver appears to be a complete inconsiderate moron on the road!

	07-03-2002 12:41									#42
	Tired of ads?

force all americans to become like those Amish people. You know- no electricity or motorized transportation.

The only exception would be the military. We wouldn't want to be conquered by Canada.

	07-03-2002 13:46									#43
	Tired of ads?

quote: Banning SUV's would be a good start, as apart from seriously wasting fuel your average SUV driver appears to be a complete inconsiderate moron on the road!

I like SUVs, so they stay .

	07-03-2002 14:25									#44
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Sounds like you watched the same documentary that I saw... Banning SUV's would be a good start, as apart from seriously wasting fuel your average SUV driver appears to be a complete inconsiderate moron on the road!

I was down that way for 8 years so had a bit of first hand, there was a documentary(!), wow that's got to be good - i've got a lot of respect for the Bouganville Islander's. In this world of Corporate Governments(hmmm......America the land of the Free(to exploit anybody)? . Although we're just as bad.), that whole thing was a BIG 'F**KU' to the greedy corporate mining industry. And all because a bunch of local people weren't going to sit by and watch their village and land be dug up without having their say - good on them, we need more people like them

EDIT: p.s I am NOT a 'commie', just don't like Coke or McD's very much. I do like 4x4's though, so back to the point i got nothing against SUV's as such - if a bunch of 'Stone-age' Pacific Islanders can make their vehicle's run on Coconut oil, without any modification to the car's, then why not the Big world powers(WTF???).Oh i know the answer why - Gulf War, Afghanistan......anyone add any more to the list?

	07-03-2002 16:46									#45
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

LotM has this issue exactly right. Tax oil imported from OPEC countries.

	07-03-2002 16:55									#46
	Support Apolyton

Well I have outlined how I reckon it should be done, a system to discourage the use of larger cars so that people drive around in more sensible, efficient vehicles.

quote: Originally posted by November Adam Actually it would be nice to see the advent of alternative fuels based on ethanol, yet I'm not sure if this would really help pollution.

Well the thing is that ethanol has to be refined from sugar IIRC, which means it is effectively grown, and thus is part of the carbon cycle, so no net change in atmospheric carbon dioxide...the energy effectively comes from the sun!

	07-03-2002 17:01									#47
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Child of Thor - Do you know anywhere that shows the mechanism for turning Coconut oil into a fuel? I'd be interested to give it a go!

Also, consider. According to recent estimates, the world has around 50 years of oil reserves left(may not be correct, but it illustrates a point). I think that neccessity will bear a solution when the time comes, i.e. why stop using petrol now? When it runs out, there WILL be an alternative because there will HAVE to be an alternative. Cutting oil consumption is just delaying the inevitable, and the inevitable is, oil supplies will run out eventually, and eventually is not going to be too far into the future...

	07-03-2002 18:43									#48
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Sounds like you watched the same documentary that I saw... Banning SUV's would be a good start, as apart from seriously wasting fuel your average SUV driver appears to be a complete inconsiderate moron on the road!

Glad your back!


How was your trip?

	07-03-2002 19:50									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Best idea is to increase gas and other energy taxes to cover the externalities caused. Most numbers I have seen indicate that you need to about double gasoline taxes (ie., increase about 38 cents per gallon) to do this.

Increasing the gas tax allows producers and consumers to make a lot more responses than a narrow tax credit would. In the short run they can drive less and insulate houses better. In the long run they can buy more fuel efficient cars, furnaces, or air conditioners, use mass transit, or change where they live or work.

Imposing a tax on imported oil only solves part of the problem. The environment does not care whether the barrel of oil you burned comes from the US or abroad. Moreover, taxing only the imported oil will generate excess profits for domestic oil producers. A tax on all sources will split the benefits and costs more equally between producers and consumers.

PS:
Did you know shreaded coconut is formally classified as hazardous material? If you have a big enough pile of the stuff, and it is wet, it will spontaneously combust.

	07-03-2002 19:59									#50
	Inflate your Upload Space

US won't reduce consumption because oil companies are making too much money. In 2000, when there was a supposed "shortage", prices went up 75%, and Exxon/Mobil's profits went up 51%.

In this day and age, gasoline has almost become a need. I say, let the federal government create a non-profit oil company. This way, prices aren't gouged and plans for better fuel economy don't get shot down by oil company lobbying.

Aside from federalizing oil, I believe that it is the government's responsibility to provide for the needs of the people. I support the idea of capitalism, but people and companies should not be allowed to profit from meeting people's needs. Energy trading should be banned. Phone service should be non-profit. Transportation should be non-profit. Many right wingers will disagree, but the current system sucks, and needs to be changed.

	07-03-2002 23:53									#51
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by soma Child of Thor - Do you know anywhere that shows the mechanism for turning Coconut oil into a fuel? I'd be interested to give it a go! Also, consider. According to recent estimates, the world has around 50 years of oil reserves left(may not be correct, but it illustrates a point). I think that neccessity will bear a solution when the time comes, i.e. why stop using petrol now? When it runs out, there WILL be an alternative because there will HAVE to be an alternative. Cutting oil consumption is just delaying the inevitable, and the inevitable is, oil supplies will run out eventually, and eventually is not going to be too far into the future...

soma,
no i don't - i knew i should have paid more attention in my chemistry classes. And even if i did i'd deny it - don't wont to upset Bush and his buddies and suddenly find myself a 'Terrorist'.

I actually want less taxes on the oil magnates and more enviromental temp rises - i think its the only way i can get rid of living on a planet populated by corrupt governments and evil people - bah bring on the floods ( I live on a high mountain )

EDIT: oh i've got a boat to

	08-03-2002 00:17									#52
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by soma Also, consider. According to recent estimates, the world has around 50 years of oil reserves left(may not be correct, but it illustrates a point). I think that neccessity will bear a solution when the time comes, i.e. why stop using petrol now? When it runs out, there WILL be an alternative because there will HAVE to be an alternative. Cutting oil consumption is just delaying the inevitable, and the inevitable is, oil supplies will run out eventually, and eventually is not going to be too far into the future...

Based on current proven reserves (around 140 billion tonnes of oil equivalent) and current usage of oil (3.5 billion tonnes/year) we have 40yrs before we run out.

Compare this to 12 years ago when the proven reserve to consumption ratio was also 40 yrs, and 22yrs ago when it was <35 years.

Predicting when oil will run out is not easy and is a moving target.

	08-03-2002 01:03									#53
	The next ten yrs will see sweeping changes Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hybrids and high-mileage/low emission vehicles are the wave of the new energy future. Its more of a question (with the Big Three, anyway) of which type of engine will be the standard. Hybrids and hydro cells are receiving much of the hype, but there are others, such as clean-diesel, which deserve consideration.

For all of these types of engines, the companies have released prototypes. However the one which combines marketability, price, comfort, and performance will come out on top, and it may not necessarily be the hybrids.

Dave

	08-03-2002 01:35									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Just saw on MSNBC.com that Ford will be releasing a hybrid version of the Escape SUV. It will supposedly get around 40 MPG city. Due out before 2003 is over.


http://www.msnbc.com/news/720368.asp?0dm=C219B


SUV's apparently aren't the real problem. It's car companies unwillingness (up to now it seems) to release hybrid vehicles.

	08-03-2002 02:02									#55
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: SUV's apparently aren't the real problem. It's car companies unwillingness (up to now

At this point, there's many factors. Car companies may be "unwilling" because demand for them is just starting to build. The US customer will not look twice at such a vehicle if it doesn't provide all the creature comforts of it's internal combustion predecessor at a comparable price. The Honda Insight and Toyota Prius are pioneers in that they brought the hybrid to mass market, but they are bare-bones and unappealing to most new car buyers- I test-drove the Insight at the local Honda dealer and, standing at over 6' 2", I barely fit into the drivers seat.

Dave

	08-03-2002 02:02									#56
	Tired of ads?

You guys don't get it, do you?

There was one option left out -- require everyone to ride bicycles, but just leave me with the choice of automobile use.

	08-03-2002 04:16									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Sava US won't reduce consumption because oil companies are making too much money. In 2000, when there was a supposed "shortage", prices went up 75%, and Exxon/Mobil's profits went up 51%.

In the UK the profit margin on petrol is nil. I'm surprised if Exxon has made that much profit on increasing petrol prices.

Also I thought Mobil branch didn't sell petrol anymore and only sold lubricants and other oil based products -therefore a lot of the profits will be based on that.

	08-03-2002 07:50									#58
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sava US won't reduce consumption because oil companies are making Aside from federalizing oil, I believe that it is the government's responsibility to provide for the needs of the people. I support the idea of capitalism, but people and companies should not be allowed to profit from meeting people's needs. Energy trading should be banned. Phone service should be non-profit. Transportation should be non-profit. Many right wingers will disagree, but the current system sucks, and needs to be changed.

and many of us leftwingers who have gotten burned with this sort of thing in the past.

Govt doesnt have to run the business to guarantee a need. Food is a need, and we provide food stamps, not govt run farms. Health insurance is a need, and in more progressively run countries like Canada and Germany the govt doesnt run the health care providers, just provides the insurance to pay for it. OTOH govt DOES run the metroliner, and poor folk still cant afford to take it (not that its a need)

LOTM

	08-03-2002 07:55									#59
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Where's the option for all of the above?

	08-03-2002 08:01									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Someone has to read the first post .