07-03-2002 21:43									#1
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Has anyone else constructed a pirate fleet (4+ privateers)?

I did and it was effective. My 2 fleets of 4 privateers downed several cargo ships (some I suspect of carrying settlers to my cultural borders) damaged several others and even sunk an ironclad before sinking beneath the waves.

Prior to the J command, I had mainly used them as scouts and a little shipping harassment. They are too weak alone, but after getting attacked by one ship, they gang up and sink the attacker.

Yo Ho Ho

	08-03-2002 20:55									#2
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Hey good to see another player using mass privateers. I tend to do the same thing you said only I also stack on frigate with the privateers. The frigate acted as the defender of the stack if the AI attacked the privateers. War was not declared either so this may be a flaw with 1.16f. Haven't tried this yet with 1.17f so not sure if you can do it now with the new patch.

Shiver me timbers!

	08-03-2002 21:32									#3
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I wish they would put piracy rules into the next patch. It is doubtful as Firaxis seems more concerned with micro issues than making the game more fun. What I propose is beyond the scope of the editor because it adds a decent chunk of code.

Anyway, here is my proposal:

Add a Pirate button, similar to the Pillage button. The Pirate button is active when next to an enemy city. Pirating steals gold, maybe 0 to 10 gold, with 0 to 1 for galleys and transports and 5 to 10 for elite combat ships. Coastal fortresses get a free shot at pirates. A successful hit disrupts piracy for that turn. One hit point units can not pirate (can not be hit by fortresses). Submarines can pirate and ignore coastal fortresses. Piracy is an act of war, except when done by Privateers.

This proposal makes building Privateers, submarines and Coastal Fortresses useful. It also gives a reason to have a standing navy in the age of sail, to counter pirates. It makes anti-submarine warfare interesting. It makes it profitable to have a pirate fleet. I don't give two hoots about sinking a few transports at high cost, but I would be interested if a pirate fleet could haul in 25 or 50 gold per turn.

My proposed piracy rules are more realistic than Age of Sail ships destroying roads and mines. That never happened. Pirates disrupting commerce and stealing goods were common.

	08-03-2002 23:11									#4
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I have had a problem with using privateers. It seems that once I launch a privateer all of the AI ships imediatly sail to wherever it is and attack it. Since the main advantage of the privateer rests in its secrecy this makes the unit completely worthless. After a couple of games I gave up on using them.

Is it just me or have other people seen the same problem? I haven't tired to make any since the 1.17 patch so that may have fixed it. I like BillChin's suggestion that privateers can pirate from cities. That would certainly add a new dimension to naval combat in the middle ages and early indutrial age. Lets hope someone from Firaxis reads this and agrees.

	08-03-2002 23:51									#5
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4?.... no. 20 in every game

	11-03-2002 06:30									#6
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quote: Originally posted by BillChin I wish they would put piracy rules into the next patch. It is doubtful as Firaxis seems more concerned with micro issues than making the game more fun. What I propose is beyond the scope of the editor because it adds a decent chunk of code. . .

Well said.

I would never use privateers unless I edited up their strengths. Not worth it. Besides that, both privateers and subs should be used differently than merely another type of warship attacking other warships. Both were designed to attack merchant shipping and trade. That role is not depicted at all in Civ III. I could have three dozen privateers right on the trade route of a rival civ but it would not effect his commerce at all as there is no way to interdict his merchant shipping! A design flaw.

	11-03-2002 17:22									#7
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Which is why caravans were good in civ2. Nothing more satisfying than sinking a fully loaded caravel with enemy caravans in it. Also nothing more frustrating than having it happen to you.

	11-03-2002 19:20									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Mute I have had a problem with using privateers. It seems that once I launch a privateer all of the AI ships imediatly sail to wherever it is and attack it. Since the main advantage of the privateer rests in its secrecy this makes the unit completely worthless. After a couple of games I gave up on using them. Is it just me or have other people seen the same problem? I haven't tired to make any since the 1.17 patch so that may have fixed it. I like BillChin's suggestion that privateers can pirate from cities. That would certainly add a new dimension to naval combat in the middle ages and early indutrial age. Lets hope someone from Firaxis reads this and agrees.

I agree with you Mute. This happens to me all the time even before 1.17f. My solution is to build 4-6 privateers and keep them in my cities until all of them have been built. Then I try
to gather them together before sailing the high seas.

	11-03-2002 20:11									#9
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I have used large numbers of privateers only once or twice. I first used them on a world map (the one that shipped w/the game) on Monarch, 1.16. I got really big, really strong, and really rich early on. I was way ahead of the AI. Before 1.17, it was possible to outdistance the AI in tech by an entire Age, which I did. So, with factories in a couple of coastal cities, I started pumping out privateers. Heh. The AI was using frigates. I actually liked that the privateers act as an AI navy-magnet, because then I don't have to go hunt them down. They came to me. It was kinda fun, and I did some damage.

I would only spend the shields on them if I was so far ahead that I didn't really have anything better to do.

-Arrian

	11-03-2002 22:30									#10
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I had never thought of the privateers as a navy magnet but that is a good idea. I wonder if they will still focus on your privateer if you are at war with them. You could build one to lure them in and then kill them with your more powerful ships.

Its worth trying out at the very least.

	11-03-2002 23:25									#11
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quote: Originally posted by BillChin Anyway, here is my proposal: Add a Pirate button, similar to the Pillage button. The Pirate button is active when next to an enemy city.

That's funny CTP2 already has that feature. It seems like the more people play Civ3 the more they ask for it to become like CTP2. To bad there isn't a way to morph the two games togeather...

	12-03-2002 03:32									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin That's funny CTP2 already has that feature.

CtP2 out of the box does not even know Privateers (ships with hidden nationality). The trade stealing is made by warships. Ridiculously, it's not an act of war, like it should.

quote: It seems like the more people play Civ3 the more they ask for it to become like CTP2.

The more the CtP2 addicts look envious at the Civ3 hype, the more they try to adapt their game to Civ3, adding the same resources, even strategic, culture, etc. Well, at least they have the better tools to mod, sigh!

quote: To bad there isn't a way to morph the two games togeather...

Civ3 with an early game tedium? Unbelievable.

	12-03-2002 05:09									#13
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quote: Originally posted by DrFell Which is why caravans were good in civ2. Nothing more satisfying than sinking a fully loaded caravel with enemy caravans in it. Also nothing more frustrating than having it happen to you.

Yea. So true. There was always so much drama and tension trying to deliver a caravan (or diplomat/spy) by sea. Especially by the long route he likely didn't protect with a destroyer or cruiser.

I once dropped off FOUR spies well behind the lines right on his road/RR network and stole four techs in one turn from four different cities!

In Civ III Espionage sucks, and is ridiculously expensive. Trade and naval combat also is lousy.

Civ II. What Civ III should have been.

	12-03-2002 10:58									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich I agree with you Mute. This happens to me all the time even before 1.17f. My solution is to build 4-6 privateers and keep them in my cities until all of them have been built.

As far as I can tell with the 1.17f patch the AI no longer goes on privateer hunts during the wooden ship era. Once the ironclads show up they do start hunting. However even with ironclads they no longer attack privateers that are in a stack with battleships.

I use them for spying on coastal development and now with 1.17f they are good for mapping unknown waters with the E hotkey. The AI doesn't call you up every time the privateers stray into their coastal waters.

Also they are still good for knocking out those occasional galleys with settlers if you get the privateers going early enough.

	12-03-2002 17:40									#15
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Can someone tell me why I suffer an attitude hit from the AI when I attack with privateers? I attacked American shipping with privateers and they suddenly went from gracious to polite. I thought privateers were unmarked and their nationality unknown to others....

	12-03-2002 21:41									#16
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Feephi,

Hmm, I'm not sure - are you sure there isn't another reason why the Americans' attitude changed?

-Arrian

p.s. I'm glad caravans are gone, just from the standpoint of manually moving them all over the place. I do miss, however, the ability to have several cities work on a Wonder, combining their production via caravans. This could be implemented without the actual units, but oh well, it wasn't.

	12-03-2002 22:00									#17
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Arrian, about that rush wonders without caravans thing I read a proposal, somebody posted at the German Infogrames forum. Once a city started to build a wonder, he wanted to add menu items to all other cities like "Help building the Pyramids in ..." etc. I find that would be a good option, although switching between wonders could be a pain if not properly implemented ("stacked" switching ).

The admin of the forum eagerly translated the idea and sent it to the Infogrames central in France. Good intent, but, oh well...

	12-03-2002 23:45									#18
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Yeah, something like that would have been good, with a % of shields lost due to inefficiency (either a flat 25 or 50%, or variable depending on government or era).

The AI would, of course, have trouble with or be completely unable to use that type of system. That may have been a factor in not including the option. In Civ II, on Deity, one could easily build nearly every wonder b/c of caravans and/or rushbuying, neither of which the AI used.

-Arrian

	15-03-2002 00:59									#19
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Avast ye scurvy dogs!
I used privateers in one particular set of circumstances: I was a democracy and had pacts with two powers, the Egyptians and Japanese, which would run out shortly. The Japanese were a middle rank power; the Egyptians were weak and backward. Since they didn't have a land border and could only fight on land if I let them, which I didn't, I had to build privateers to sink the Japanese invasion fleets threatening Egypt and prevent myself being forced into an unpopular war, before the treaties ran out.

	15-03-2002 01:06									#20
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quote: Originally posted by C Chulainn Avast ye scurvy dogs! I used privateers in one particular set of circumstances: I was a democracy and had pacts with two powers, the Egyptians and Japanese, which would run out shortly. The Japanese were a middle rank power; the Egyptians were weak and backward. Since they didn't have a land border and could only fight on land if I let them, which I didn't, I had to build privateers to sink the Japanese invasion fleets threatening Egypt and prevent myself being forced into an unpopular war, before the treaties ran out.

Now THAT is a really good use for the privateer. Slick move, Chulainn, very slick.

-Arrian

	15-03-2002 02:22									#21
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Ok, something wierd happened in my latest game. I was using privateers to harass the AI, and I ran into a Man-o-War. I attacked, and lost.

Curious, just in case, I investigated an English city, and low and behold, it was producing extra shields and commerce, like in a golden age. I think I triggered it! They weren't fighting anyone else, that's for sure, and they didn't trigger one with a wonder. I took advantage of it, because they suddenly could afford to pay 32gold/turn for some luxuries of mine, which they couldn't before.

Anyone else seen this?

-Arrian

	15-03-2002 04:51									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Ok, something wierd happened in my latest game. I was using privateers to harass the AI, and I ran into a Man-o-War. I attacked, and lost. Curious, just in case, I investigated an English city, and low and behold, it was producing extra shields and commerce, like in a golden age. I think I triggered it! They weren't fighting anyone else, that's for sure, and they didn't trigger one with a wonder. I took advantage of it, because they suddenly could afford to pay 32gold/turn for some luxuries of mine, which they couldn't before. Anyone else seen this? -Arrian

Haven't seen this, no. But I have seen the computer attack and lose to one of my elite units giving me a great leader. So I can believe that losing to the Man-o-War would trigger a golden age for them.

Cheers,

	26-03-2002 00:35									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Unregistered Haven't seen this, no. But I have seen the computer attack and lose to one of my elite units giving me a great leader. So I can believe that losing to the Man-o-War would trigger a golden age for them. Cheers,

That is quite possible.

Golden Ages can be triggered by building wonders that correspond to your civ's traits or by a victory (on offense or defense) of your unique unit. In the English's case, the Man-O-War.

Great Leaders can be generated by a victory (offence or defense) of one of your elite units.