09-03-2002 01:38									#1
	Teach me how to use the babylonians! Suffering from ads?

I feel like everyone else is doing immensely well with the Babylonians, but I am getting left out. I don't seem to be able to use them well, and I am on a quest to be able to use all of the civs, so those of you who know the Babylonians well, please teach me.

	09-03-2002 02:22									#2
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They're pure builders. Use an early-game ICS-type strategy. Don't build bowmen, you'll want a later GA. Spread out, build lots of workers to build infrastructure. Build just enough military to defend yourself and deter attackers, with maybe one or two early rushes to clear territory if anyone starts too close to you.

Once you have a base of operations (1 or 2 "rings" of cities around your capital, depending on map size), build culture out the wazoo. That's what babs are good at. Get to monarchy ASAP, and rush-build temples & libraries on your borders. This will gain you peaceful flips from your neighbors, in which you can rush-build more temples & libraries, and you get one free garrison unit in each flipped city.

Attack only when you know you're strong enough to win, and get as many allies as you can to do as much of the dirty work as possible.

	09-03-2002 02:39									#3
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Ooooh, the Babs, my favorite (well, it may actually be a tie between them and Egypt, but I digress).

The Babylonians are the strongest culture civ out there. They are also, under the right circumstances, a powerful tool for a hybrid player (part peaceful builder, part warmonger).

The key city improvements in Civ III come fast and furious in the ancient and early medieval periods:

temples
libraries
courthouses
marketplaces
aqueducts
coloseums
cathedrals
universities
banks

(clearly, there are other important things to build later, but I'm just talking about the first 1/2 of the game, which is the most important half).

4 of the 9 I listed are 1/2 price for the Babs. Get 'em done, out of the way, and build units. I normally do this after building Sun Tzu, because otherwise you've gotta build barracks all over the place, and that's a pain. Anyway, the main advantage the Babs give you is TIME. No anarchy. Double speed on 4 key improvements. Oh, and just for fun, three free advances throughout the game.

I use the extra time to build up my army. Pre-1.17, I often was able to pump out a large number of horsemen. Now, since tech moves so fast, I only get a few done before I get Chivalry, which slows down the building of my army. I'd rather have a ton of horsemen and pay to upgrade them (preferably with Leo's). Then, with a large force of Knights, it's time to crush somebody. The Zulu are often a soft target, since Impi are no match for Knights. Also, be sure to bring along a couple of Bowmen, so you can trigger your Golden Age. The Middle Ages are a great time for a GA, since there are so many key wonders to build (Sistine, Sun Tzu, Leo's, Copernicus, Newton, Bach).

The Babs have a subtle advantage in war, because their crazy culture reduces the chance cities will flip, and it's cheap to rush temples, libraries and cathedrals in captured cities (not that you really want to keep many, but that's another story). You should also gain a few cities during peacetime, due to culture flips. Bascially, the Babs "win the peace" easier than anyone else.

The weaknesses of the Babs are basically two: they are not industrious, so early expansion & consolidation is slower than it could be, and the bowman isn't much of a UU.

One other note. There are two combinations of Wonders that will trigger pretty well-timed golden ages for the Babs. The Great Library plus either the Colossus or the Sistine Chapel. The latter will get you a more powerful golden age, but one can often hold off on the Colossus for a while, because the AI does not prioritize it, and building the second combo can ensure that you manage to build the Sistine at all. Plus, the Colossus is just a nice Wonder to have, particularly if you can manage to get Copernicus and Newton in the same city. You don't always have a coastal city, of course.

-Arrian

	09-03-2002 03:19									#4
	Re: Teach me how to use the babylonians! Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by FireDragon I feel like everyone else is doing immensely well with the Babylonians, but I am getting left out. I don't seem to be able to use them well, and I am on a quest to be able to use all of the civs, so those of you who know the Babylonians well, please teach me.

I'd recommend reviewing Vel's notes on the Babs

	09-03-2002 06:28									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian 4 of the 9 I listed are 1/2 price for the Babs. Get 'em done, out of the way, and build units. I normally do this after building Sun Tzu, because otherwise you've gotta build barracks all over the place, and that's a pain. Anyway, the main advantage the Babs give you is TIME. No anarchy. Double speed on 4 key improvements. Oh, and just for fun, three free advances throughout the game. -Arrian

Shouldn't that be 5 out of 9? Add Research Center in Mod era for six.

They are my favorite builder civ. I have tried early war with bowman (bowman rush), because of GA it can work, but have to agree that early industrial GA is very powerful (last Bab game I had continent to myself, so only barbs to deal with and no early GA, so I saved my elite bowmen and got some weakened units in the industrial era. There is always the chance of getting a leader with your obsolete elites, consequently I usually don't upgrade them, unless I have to).

It is still tough to build wonders (at emperor) except for Collosus, Hoover and Seti. I usually lose when I try for Sistene. Better to focus on the infrastructure in the early and mid game. It is usually necessary to prebuild the latter ones.

It should be possible to become tech leader by industrial era, maybe earlier. Just wait until the infrastructure is in place and then full throttle science even past the sustainable point. Science era bonus really helps perpetuate being the science leader, but you can't let up to stay on top. Being tech leader accelerates the game and makes for a big bonus at lift off.

Very nice to be able to switch to communism in 1 turn in war too long for Democracy.

	09-03-2002 06:56									#6
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Thank you Arrian et all for the information, I am beginning to see that if I wanna play as the Babylonians, I must get more practice first at Deity. Generally, I start with my "crutch" civs when first going to a more difficult level. Crutch civs are ones like the Aztecs who I have an innate feel for how to use well. Then I move on to more difficult ones for me, like the French. They are about average, IMO. I find winning by non-conquest difficult.

	09-03-2002 20:24									#7
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I think it would be quite a challenge to win at Deity with the Babylonians, (i.e., non-conquest). I think they would play better as a Monarch level or Emperor level builder civ. Most threads that I have read from Deity players are using early conquest strategies. Try reading something from Solo, I believe he plays non-conquest Deity games.

	09-03-2002 21:24									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes, he was a famous civII player. I came within 400 years of his best landing date once. He's one of the posters I've kind of "tagged" so I always read his posts when I see them.

	11-03-2002 20:00									#9
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Ohhh... Diety, huh? Well, that's over my head. I play on Monarch. Playing peaceful builder on Diety, while I'm sure it's possible, has got to be frustrating as hell. The problem with the Babs on Diety is that the bonus techs you get for being scientific really aren't worth anything. That devalues the Babs a bit.

-Arrian

	12-03-2002 02:05									#10
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Barbylonians on Diety is very hard. I had won (space race) once with pre-patch. In that game I produced loads of Bowmen and conquered a neighbor civ. I did not need the Great Library because I could trade cities for techs. However, in a v1.17 game, you need to build the Great Library to stay at par with AIs (until the discovery of education). Hopefull a great leader is produced by 1200 BC when an AI , one average, will complete the is Wonder. Among other things , the battlefields has to produce one great leader for building the great library, one for forbidden palace, one for Sistine Chapel and hopefully one for Newton's College. Babylonian civ as a non-militaristic civ would have diffilty to achieve that. With v1.17, I had some luck with Iroquois ( the best), Egypt and Azetec for winning a space race on diety.
I think that on a tiny map ( techs are cheaper) with only 3 other civs (only 2 left after you conquered one), the Barbylonian civ may win.
Just my 2 cents.