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Ethelred
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More like we don't have anything better to do.
I know I am trying to avoid my latest Civ III game as it has reached that critical ancient era junction when one civ has got to go. I have this suspicion it may be me.
The Anasazi didn't exist. That is the word isn't Anasazi as no one knows what they called themselves. I don't think they qualify for the game.
Think of the Iroquois as the representing ALL the North American Indians and the Aztecs as representing all the Central American cultures. Then the Anasazi are a better fit with Central America. They had a ball court anyway.
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Ethelred
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The Navajo are most closely related to the Apache and then the Pacific Northwest Amerinds but not the Hopi. Linguistic studies show that the Navajo were from a later migration than most of the Amerinds. That study was quite a while ago though. I don't know if genetic studies have confirmed it.
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethelred
The Navajo are most closely related to the Apache and then the Pacific Northwest Amerinds but not the Hopi. Linguistic studies show that the Navajo were from a later migration than most of the Amerinds. That study was quite a while ago though. I don't know if genetic studies have confirmed it. |
The Navaho themselves claim to have Anasazi blood. They were an Athabascan tribe that came from the north and mixed with the Anasazi, partly adopting their culture, too.
To be more exact: the Navaho and Apache came south together as one Athabascan branch, and only grew into different nations after they settled in different places in the southwest.
When the Navaho numbers rose, they warred with ao the Hopi for territory.
There have been no DNA studies so far to prove or disprove any of this, but it sounds not unlikely, and Amerind oral history in other cases has been proven accurate.
Last edited by Ribannah on 16-03-2002 at 18:49
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Ethelred
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quote:
That doesn't make sense. Just look at the city names, they are purely Iroquois and Aztec, so the option to add more Amerind civs is open. |
I was talking about what Firaxis said. They chose the Iriquois to represent the North American Amerinds. They not only said so they chose a plains indian UU which is pretty good confirmation.
Teotihuacan isn't Aztec. That city was at its peak before the Aztecs existed. Tlaxcala was the city of Cortez's allies. Tlacopan was an ally of the Aztecs but that is not the same as being Aztec.
Tzintzuntzen thats another bunch of Aztec enemies.
Tula was Toltec.
So no they aren't all Aztec. I am not going to check on the Iroquois because I don't realy care about them.
As for the Navajo I suppose its possible they mixed a bit with the Anasazi. However they probably mixed with the more directly descended Hopi as well. People that fight each other tend to do things like that when they aren't fighting.
There is room for a lot things. We could have Formians and Elves if someone wanted to figure out just what the heck Formians were.
So the guys at Firaxis aren't even remotely expert about Pre-Columbian America. So you can make a Pre-Columbian mod. With Aztecs, Mayans, Toltec, Olmecs and if you are feeling a bit silly you can throw in some Jews to placate the folks in Utah.
Humming Bird on the Left would be a good leader.
Now that I think about it how about the Formians, Elves, Tua De Danaan, Arthur and Prester John. At least no one could complain about its lack of realism. Well I suppose someone could but it would be sillier than the mod itself.
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Ethelred
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quote:
The Formians are a race of humanoid-insects native to Arcadia. |
That won't fit with Irish myth.
Dang. Google only comes up with one site for the Formians and it hardly mentions them. Lots of sites about races in games with the name but just this one for the myth.
http://www.msu.edu/~enterlin/Celts/druid.html
Usually I can find lots of stuff on Celtic myths.
HAH Google had this one for Irish Myth but missed the Formians.
http://indigo.ie/~legends/dates.html
69 BC
The Partholonians fought the Fomorians, sea pirates probably from Scandinavia.
1869 BC
The Tuatha Dé Danaan fought and defeated the Fomorians near Lough Arrow, Co. Sligo, in the Second Battle of Moytura. Nuada was killed, and Lugh Lámhfada became king. (The Fall of Troy also occurred about this time, according to the Lebor Gabála.)
I thought the Tuatha De Denaan would be involved in that.
That was part of this site
http://www.luminarium.org/mythology/ireland/
Found what I was looking for. Would have been easier if remembered Jim Fitzpatrick's name.
http://www.jimfitzpatrick.ie/mythology/balor.html
My brother has a copy of the Book of Conquests. Great artwork.
Balor was the leader of the Formians. Unfortunatly the picture there is not of Balor.
I found lots of stuff on Celtic Formians when I gave up on searching for them and entered Tuath De Danaan into the search bar.
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N. Machiavelli
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THE Prince
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
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Why is there even an arguement at all? Unless I've suddenly become illiterate, the topic reads: What Civ Would You Have Included?
If a person wanted to include the Celts, that's their decision, hence the name of the thread. If you didnt want to include the Celts, then bloody mention someone else. This has no impact on anything and is 100% opinion.
What Cheese do you like to eat?
Nandmas: "I like to eat Chedder."
Blolly Moom: "You can't choose Chedder! It's not old enough to be considered a true Cheese, and is merely a distant offshoot of Provelone!"
Nandmas: "No it's not, it's common knowledge that Portwine finds it's origins in Chedder, and Portwine is centuries old!"
Blolly Moom: "You ignorant bufoon! Acording to knowledge I gleemed off the internet in the last 15 minutes: *insert long list of irrelevent websites*, you are absolutley wrong."
Nandmas: "Oh yeah? well according to my sources *insert longer list of websites as though that makes it more credible*, it is you who is wrong!"
Blolly Moom: "America sucks!"
-Names where changed to protect the guilty. If you took offense in any way, quite arguing over someone's personal choices that have 0 effect on you and keep asses like me from using it against you.
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N. Machiavelli
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THE Prince
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
I believe I was replying to an earlier post that said why someone thought the Celts were not a worthy enough civilization to be included. Then someone else said that there was no Celtic culture around today. I fail to see how the imputation that I would make an infantile comment on America has any reference to what has been a so far, enjoyable discussion. If you don't want to read it, then don't. Why is there an argument at all? Gosh, must be your illiteracy kicking in. The question 'what civ would you have included?' to me implies making a choice on reasoned grounds supported with facts, and not on a whim. |
 Wow, 15 minutes. I wonder if there's a connection. You did answer my original question, albeit indirectly. I suppose it stems from this sort of defensiveness. The thought that perhaps....just perhaps....we could post a response to the topic question (without a 10-page essay or flames), is evidently so horrendous that a single person must try to refute others based on their own opinion. Heck, I didnt even mention you at all Ms. Bloom, let alone suggest that you of all people would make infintile comments on America, but since you have chosen to single yourself out, make whatever assumption you wish. 
And btw, I'm still scanning my original message and cant seem to find the words "Molly Bloom". Gosh, must be that illiteracy thing kicking in as you said, perhaps you could point them out for me.
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Ethelred
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quote:
And btw, I'm still scanning my original message and cant seem to find the words "Molly Bloom". |
Anyone can see that you simply made a typo.
Molly was NOT telling someone what civ they couldn't have or justify. That was the person Molly was responding to that did that.
As for the 15 minute interval what about you? What about Email notification like the one I just recieved while playing Civ III.
Yes I actually play the game. Imagine someone at Apolyton on the Civ III forum that actually plays the game.
Celts are immenently justifiable. Only a Brit would claim otherwise and they stole their name from the Celts.
Heck the arrogant brits even turned Boudicea into a Viking when they made a movie about her in the Hammer Film the Viking Queen.
Its the vile rapacious English that need to go. So little civilization of own they even stole the name of their 'empire' from the Celts. If we had the celts we could have rampaging spearman dressed only in skin dye. Odd looking chariots with female warriors like Boudicea. We could even have the unspellable hero Cuchu Lainen. I have seen four or five spellings and none match the Irish pronunciation.
We want CELTS.
And Spanish too.The Spanish, the French, and the English are all trodding on land that was once Celtic so why not one more of them in the game. While I am ranting about Celtic soil I might as well mention that the Celts also invaded German and Greek territory as well.
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Ethelred
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Elizebeth needs to get laid. That might help her attitude. In the real world even it might have helped her attitude. Can't say that it would have helped anything else though. She was between a rock and a hard place for much of her life. Especially her early adulthood. Nasty dangerous and riddled with traps.
I left out the rest because good satire shouldn't be laid on that thick. Thats for the Celtic legends like Cuchu Lainen. Now that one is outrageously overdone.
Besides the English gave the Celts a language fit to tell the English all those things while making it look like a compliment. So it wasn't all bad. Just most of it.Much like the job England did on India except there they also built a really good rail system as well as giving them a language fit for international use. Or even in the next county.
Of course spelling English is an entirely different matter. That part is pure evil. I figure the English must have used the same sort of people to decide how to spell as they did when they muddled their way to Empire. Buffoons and nabobs and at least one gouty old wag with a case of obsessive compulsion.
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dunk
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Philadelphia, PA
Mar 2002
time: 00:18
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My opinion is that there should be as many civs as possible to choose from. 16, 32... why not 100? All of them don't have to be in the same game at the same time, but the selection should be large. Why quibble about whether the Spanish or the Vikings or the Turks or the Tibetans belong in the game? Have all of them. I would love to see the Inca, the Polynesians, the Inuit, the Siamese, etc. And leaders and units and so on for each. A choice of leader portraits or animations would be cool too (for example... be Geo Washington, Abe Lincoln, or Harry Truman as the Americans).
Some people posting on topics like this seem to have some lofty thoughts about this game being some kind of measuring stick for a civilization's accomplishments. Civ A is in the game and civ B isn't, therefore civ B isn't as good. 
There should obviously be more civ-specific attributes if the number of civs are to be increased. I've seen "Agricultural" and "Seafaring" discussed... both good ideas.
And who cares if the civs are balanced? If you want a challenge, pick a civ that doesn't match your play style or has (as far as you're concerned) crappy traits. If you want to use your favorite strategy, play as the civ that has the traits you like. You can also tailor the game even further by selecting your opponents.
I wanna see pages of choices for my civ when I open up my game. 
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
Celtic curiousities carefully commodified for tourist titilation does not make a still thriving civilization. My lowland hometown recently started an annual 'highland games' specifically for the tourists.
Neither does tiny special-interest groups. That would make Klingon a thriving culture.
Celtic is basically a brand-label, like Coca-cola.
If cornish is a living language, well, we must have different definitions of 'living'. |
Are the Bretons a special interest group? How about Erse speaking Irish? Given the combinations of official harassment, expulsion, benign neglect and banning suffered by the Irish, Scots Gaelic speakers and the Welsh and Bretons, it's a wonder any kind of Celtic culture survived. Of course you can bleat about commodification- but then Edinburgh has its tourist draws like the Military Tattoo and Festival too, and the Lowlands Scots culture has never shied from applying a bit of tartan thistle window dressing when money was the object of the exercise. To compare the diversity of the Celtic world, music, decorative arts, literatures, sports, with a brand name is a move worthy of a lowlander- the people that sold Scotland to the English. A parcel of rogues in a nation, indeed.
As for Cornish being a living language- well, if Cornish women and men born in Cornwall, of Cornish descent speak Cornish- and if the Cornish abroad- for instance in South Australia, Tasmania, Victoria and America decide to revive Cornish as a spoken language without any kind of government incentive or coercion- then yes, I'd pretty much say Cornish was a living language again.
Much the same happened with Hebrew.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:18
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Just my two cents: Add the Arabs, leader Mohammed; the Jews, leader Moses; the Turks, leader Sulieman; the Moguls, leader Timor the Lame; the Franks, leader Charles the Great; the Goths, leader Alaric; the Vandals, leader Geirseric, the Vikings, leader Eric, the Eastern Roman Empire, leader Justinian, the Spanish, leader Philip, the Carthaginians, leader Hannibal, etc. No people who had a significant place in history should be omitted.
I suspect the current conflict in the Middle East may be a reason the Arabs were not included. To include them and not the Jews would be taking sides. To include the Jews would expose the folks at Firaxis to terroism.
Ned
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Oerdin
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of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:18
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For those of you who don't know enough about the Celts, which seems to be most of you, I shall repost an article I wrote in a Celts XP thread which can be found at http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=29913 Cheers.
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* The Celts *
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Names: Celtic Empire, Celts, Celtic
Time Period: 500B.C. and 200 A.D. (though states such as Scotland & Ireland survive to this day)
Leader: King Arthorius (Arthur)
Unique units: Woad Warrior; a swordsman that has a +1 to movement
CSAs: Commercial and either Militerist or Religious.
Historical Significance: A widely spread cultural group that dominated Europe from 500B.C. to 200A.D.; Celtic artifacts have been found in Asia Minor and as far away as the Tarim basin, Xinjiang provience, China.
Description:
CELTS:- An ancient people who dominated much of Western , Central , Eastern Europe and Asia Minor in the 1st millennium bc, giving their language, customs, and religion to the other peoples of that area.
History:- The earliest found archaeological evidence associated with the Celts places them in what is now France and western Germany in the late Bronze Age around 1200 bc. In the early Iron Age, they are associated with the Halstatt culture (8th-6th cent. bc) named for an archaeological site in Upper Austria. They probably began to settle in the British Isles during this period. Between the 5th and 1st centuries bc , their influence extended from what is now Spain , the islands of the British Isles to the shores of the Black Sea , from the Ukraine to Turkey. This huge land/cultural region ( never an 'Empire') encompassing the areas mentioned influenced much of the continent of Europe and was greater in size then modern European Russia. Despite the shared religion/language and culture this large area was never politically united , finding only brief periods of unity when threatened by common foes. The later Iron Age phase of Celtic Culture is called La Tene, after a site in Switzerland and dates from the previously mentioned 5th to 1st centuries bc. Evidence from this period suggests that the Celts were the first peoples of Europe to actively use and work with iron. The word Celt is derived from Keltoi, the name given to these people by Herodotus and other Greek writers. To the Romans, the Continental Celts were known as Galli, or Gauls; those in Britain were called Britanni. In the 4th century bc the Celts invaded the Greco-Roman world, conquering northern Italy and sacking Rome, whilst also conquering Macedonia and Thessaly. They plundered Rome in 390, sacked Delphi in 279, and penetrated Asia Minor, where they were known as Galatians. The "Cisalpine Gauls" of northern Italy were conquered by the Romans in the 2nd century bc .Transalpine Gaul (modern France and the Rhineland) was subdued by Julius Caesar in the 1st century bc. and most of Britain came under Roman rule in the 1st century ad. In the same period. the Celts of central Europe being fragmented came under the domination by the Germanic peoples. In medieval and modern times the Celtic tradition and languages survived in Brittany ( Western France), Cornwall, Galicia ( North Western Spain) , Galatia ( Central Turkey), Wales, the Scottish Highlands, Isle of Man and Ireland, and to a lesser extent in the Norse/Celtic culture of Iceland.
Way of Life:- The various Celtic tribes were bound together by common speech, customs, and religion, rather than by any well defined central governments. There government was through the use of a feudal system with each tribe being headed by a king/chief and was divided by class into Druids (priests), warrior nobles, and commoners/freemen and slaves . Politically there was a great degree of democracy within the society with both men and women being treated equally and all important decisions being made at tribal gatherings in which women had an equal voice. Rulers were subject to removal at these gathering if found unsatisfactory or incompetent and succession was not necessarily hereditary. The absence of any large scale political unity amongst the tribes contributed substantially to the extinction of their way of life, making them vulnerable to their enemies. Their economy was pastoral and agricultural and they had no real urban life however trade played a large part in there economy . The nobles fought on foot with swords and spears and were fond of feasting and drinking. Celtic mythology, which included earth gods, various woodland spirits, and sun deities, was particularly rich in elfin demons and tutelaries, beings that still pervade the lore of peoples of Celtic ancestry.
Celtic Christianity:- The Christian faith was well established in Celtic Britain by the 4th century ad, but in the 5th century the Saxons and other Germanic peoples invaded the country, driving most of the Celtic Christians into Wales and Cornwall. At the same time. St. Patrick and other British missionaries founded a new church in Ireland, which then became the centre of Celtic Christianity. The Irish church developed a distinctive organization in which bishops were subordinate to the abbots of monasteries .The Irish monks, devoted to learning as well as religion, did much to preserve a knowledge of ancient Roman literature in early medieval Europe. Between the late 6th and the early 8th centuries, Irish missionaries were active in Christianizing the Germanic peoples that had conquered the Western Roman Empire, and they founded numerous monasteries in present-day France, Germany, Switzerland , and Italy. Celtic Christianity in Ireland was weakened by the Viking invasions of the 9th and 10th centuries, and by the 12th century its characteristic institutions, which were incompatible with those of the dominant Roman church, had largely disappeared from Europe.
Art:- Celtic art is considered the first great contribution to European art made by non Mediterranean peoples. Its roots go back to the artisans of the Urnfield culture and the Hallstatt culture (8th-6th cent. bc) at the beginning of the Iron Age. It flowered in the period of the La Tene culture. Although Celtic art was influenced by ancient Persian, Greek, Etruscan, and Roman art and by that of the nomads of the Eurasian steppes it developed distinctive characteristics. These are evident in its major artefacts-weapons, vessels, and jewelry in bronze, gold, electrum and occasionally silver. Many of these objects were made for chieftains in southern Germany and France and were recovered from their tombs. The Celtic style is marked by a preference for stylised plant motifs, usually of Greek origin, and fantastic animals, derived from the Scythians and other steppe peoples; however the human figure tended to play a secondary role. Other favourite motifs are elliptical curves and opposing curves. spirals, and chevrons, also derived from steppe art. These elements were combined in dynamic yet balanced, intricate geometrical patterns carried out in relief engraving, or red, yellow, blue, and green champleve enamel on shields, swords, sheaths, helmets, bowls, and jewelry. They also appeared on painted pottery cinerary urns, food vessels, incense bowls, and drinking cups. Examples of Celtic art include torcs, or neck rings, with the two open ends ornamented with animal heads, the silver repousse Cundestorp cauldron (c. 400 bc . National Museum, Copenhagen), a bronze lozenge-shaped shield with circular medallions and small enamel circles (1st cent. bc - 1st cent. ad ), and a bronze mirror with enamelled decoration (1st cent. bc) (both British Museum. London). Also surviving are roughly carved stone monuments and wooden objects. During the period of Roman domination of Western Europe in and after the 1st century bc the art of Celtic peoples on the Continent gradually lost its distinctive style. The Celts of Ireland continued to work with traditional motifs but as Christianity took hold, they combined them with Christian motifs and employed their skills in the service of the church.
Celts Today:- Today the people who call themselves Celts or still strongly identify with there celtic history can be found in the following areas:- Brittany France, Cornwall, Galicia Spain, Galatia Turkey, Ireland, Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales. All these areas have strong Celtic elements to there culture with some of them still speaking Celtic Languages whilst others though not speaking a Celtic language have strong Celtic cultural rootes. The modern Celts have a varied and rich history and have influenced many of the worlds current great nations with their pioneering spirit and love of adventure helping to found some of the worlds most progressive and greatest nations.
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16-03-2002 08:31
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