10-01-2001 04:16									#1
	Free option: Parallell tech-tree advancements? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I discovered this from a Happy Puppy CTP-2 review

Something for Civ-3 as well perhaps? Any comments?

quote: "As far as the scientific improvements go, one problem that I've had with the Civilization series as a whole, and with most empire-building games in general, is the way scientific improvement is handled, which is one advancement at a time. For a game that prides itself on having such an advanced empire-building model, you'd think someone would realize that tanks, planes, radar, automobiles, and a whole mess of other things all were developed concurrently. It would have been nice to have the option to research multiple technologies, so you could have the choice of concentrating all of your research on one goal (thus achieving it faster), or spreading the wealth a bit to get more upgrades at once."

	10-01-2001 04:40									#2
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Sounds like a good idea. You can allocate science beakers among the different techs. All beakers have to be used up (because other wise they would just go to waste), and you can research as many, or as few techs as you want.

	10-01-2001 05:01									#3
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I still would like some type of research where the type of Civ you are plays a part in how fast research goes and in which direction in heads.

If you constantly fight wars, you will be able to build legions before your neighbors because you will use your technology to fight. While, an expansionist near the ocean will get ships faster and have colonies overseas.

But something other than the simple, I am going to research this technology in x amount of turns is in order.

	10-01-2001 07:37									#4
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I like the multiple research idea. There ought to be multiple science queues you can allocate beakers to. Maybe the number of queues could be dictated by the number of research centres you possess. And to get a civ specific flavour to them, only certain techs would be researchable in certain centres. For example:

Cities = one general purpose research queue
Military Labs = one military tech only research queue
Universities = one general purpose research queue
Civilian Hospitals = one health? related research queue
...

If that produces too many queues to make the specificity meaningful (who cares if you have 5 hospitals and 15 mil labs when practically speaking you only have enough beakers to get 4 labs going at a reasonable pace), perhaps you would need multiple centres to get a single queue (before that they just help produce beakers).

I also like the idea of multiple build queues within a city (why put all your city production into one basket? It would be very useful to have a couple of workers beetling away on defenses while everybody else is cranking out tanks.)

	10-01-2001 23:15									#6
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This is one of those things that, if it's in there, you don't have to worry about if you don't want to. You could just allways allocate all your beakers to one tech at a time and not worry about other techs.

They could even have a switch button by every tech available which says 'allocate all research here' which you can click and all research will go towards that goal. They could also have another button which says 'even out research among all goals' which would divide your research between all techs available.

	10-01-2001 23:41									#7
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TOTALLY opposed to this.

This is one clear-cut case where "realism" takes a back seat to "fun".

There was nothing more addictive and "fun" in the first Civilization games than making that tough decision on what technology to pursue next. That was where the fun was: you had to CHOOSE carefully between a variety of interesting options.

That's what kept strategists thinking and planning and eagerly awaiting that next turn on into the wee hours of the night.

The interesting choices you make are part of what makes a game like this addictive. But the choices are straightforward, often, and distinct enough to be intriguing for planners. Make it so their's too much planning and strategy involved all at one time (i.e. you can choose a bunch of technologies at once...*ugh*) and you lose alot of the simplicity, the beauty, and the basic enjoyment of the game.

I promise you, what keeps people "hooked" on strategic computer games is simple, interesting choices with direct consequences.

This is perhaps the dullest idea since the "managing your supply lines" one. It does nothing to improve the overall enjoyment of the game.


[This message has been edited by Frugal_Gourmet (edited January 10, 2001).]

	10-01-2001 23:55									#8
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As I said in my last post: This is one of those things that you can ignore if you don't want to worry about. You can still follow a linear path if you feel like it.

But, this raises an interesting question: Will it be strategically better to research multiple techs at once? After all if you have your research spread out between 10 different techs then you won't gain any techs for 10 times as long, after which you gain 10 techs and wait 10 times as long for the next 10. As opposed to one at a time, by the time the other guy gets his next ten you have already had the first nine, and got the tenth at the same time as he got all ten, so you are really ahead because you've had all those other techs for longer than him.

But, you can estimate if you will have extra research left over from the one that you are researching, and you can allocate it to other techs so that no research is wasted because you only needed 1 beaker to gain that tech and you get 50 beakers per turn.

	11-01-2001 00:18									#9
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Which makes me think: why even bother?

Better just not to have the strategy available in the first place.

Such a change would entail a more complex model of the way knowledge and technology are handled by the game. But that addition of complexity would add no fun or intrigue. In fact, it might take away fun because instead of making a simple, interesting choice between a few options with direct conesquences you are faced with a more complex, confusing choice wherein the consequences aren't that immediately apparent at all.

Over-complexity can turn Civ into more of a "chore" than a game.

Think of chess. How simple is chess to learn? Extremely. How realistically does chess model actual mililtary strategy? It's based on that notion, but really only scratches the surface.

But how beautiful is chess? How addictive? How intriguing are the choices you make? Would you ever wish to add MORE complexity to the game of chess? If so, what could you possibly add?

	11-01-2001 00:29									#10
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How about just automatically sticking the extra beakers in the next tech you choose, then no beakers are wasted. And scrap this idea if no one else will speak for why it might be more fun/strategically better to include this idea in civ 3

	11-01-2001 00:35									#11
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Well, if I went a little overboard in my zealous defense of simplicity I apologize. Choosing a single technology to focus on is one of the basic things I really liked about Civ.

I'm sure if there's a good way to "tweak" the system and allow it to still be fun I'm all for it.

	11-01-2001 00:50									#12
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I don't think it needs that much tweeking, and it won't complicate the tech tree that much if at all.

The way it would work is you have a screen that you can pull up which has all the techs available for research. Each one has by it a feild to enter the number of beakers you would like to allocate to that tech, and two buttons, one for 'allocate all beakers here' and one for 'remove all beakers', they would also have the number of beakers already 'used' by that tech and the total to reach that tech. It would also have on it the total beakers and the number of extra beakers, and a button for 'even out research' to divide all beakers among all techs.

	11-01-2001 01:27									#13
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I like the multiple tech research idea although I am not sure how often I would use it. In the civ world I always seem to be focused on that ONE tech I really want so I can build the unit/wonder/building that I need. There are times that I am not in dire need of one particular tech versus another and in those times it would be neat to be able to spread it across a few techs I want.

Happy Puppy's review is a bad one to base this on though. Historically technological advances have come in big bunches with huge holes in between. This would make gameplay rather boring. It also fails to keep in mind that one tech doesnt mean one new thing. Most techs have a few things they do. You aren't researching a specific building, you are researching a general thing that leads to that building and perhaps a new unit or wonder. That's why its good to keep the advancement titles general.
[This message has been edited by Jerk (edited January 10, 2001).]

	11-01-2001 03:38									#14
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BTW, why don't you look at the Tech tree part of CIV 3 suggestions?

It hosts lot of ideas, about parallel tech research, too.

Me too often forget to check it, so I "discover" again the same solution so many smart apolytoner suggested months or years ago

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	11-01-2001 03:48									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Frugal_Gourmet on 01-10-2001 01:41 PM TOTALLY opposed to this.

I have one objection that i didnt really think of, before i posted this quote. I shall probably never use this option, even if they decides to implement it, because...

Alternative A:

If I choose to allocate 33% lightbulbes equally to 3 different techs (adding up to roughly 100%), it means 3 times as long waiting time before I get access to any of these 3 chosen techs.

Alternative B:

If I instead choose to allocate 100% to tech 1, it means i get access to that specific tech, after only 1/3 of above waiting-time. If I then continue to allocate 100% to tech 2, it means that i get access to that specific tech after only 2/3 of above waiting-time.

This means that if i was dumb enough to choose alternative A, i wouldnt have any access to tech 1 for 2/3 of my waiting time, compared with alternative B. Similarly, i wouldnt have access to tech 2 for 1/3 of the waiting-time, compared with alternative B. Why would I ever want to choose alternative A?

Last edited by Ralf on 27-05-2001 at 11:43

	11-01-2001 05:49									#16
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i think the idea, that those who really use much the benefits from one tech, those techs that have it as prerequisite can be researched quicker, is a really good one.

	11-01-2001 19:36									#17
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Multiple tech research could be implemented but it would mean shifting the whole process away from its current method. Logically, your empire does not have 2,000 interchangeable multi-talented general scientists. In reality breakthroughs are accomplished by teams of brilliant specialists assisted by some generalists and research staff. For this reason research on marine cultures does not significantly impede progress toward advanced space flight, weapons or philosophy. Implementing that in Civ is probably advocating realism above playability although I would like to see them try. Each tech could have an optimum team size. Each scientist/bulb up to that total would apply at full effect. Further bulbs would speed research at a declining rate, making them potentially more useful if applied to other research. You can still rush a science but it will not be the most efficient way.

It could be interesting though if civ's had different research modifiers depending on their government and peace status i.e. Despots whould have a generally poor scientific output but it would perform best when used to research warlike advances, particularly when fighting a war. To make this work the techs would need to be broken down into their different components. I.e. you would research the basic mathematics advance first, then one possible offshoot would be to design catapults. The warlike could stop to research this new unit while the more peaceloving could choose to discover aqueducts and gamble on not being attacked.

A different thread has already broached this concept of core technologies with offshoot dead-end applications. The basic footsoldier unit would remain largely the same piece throughout the ages but its offense, defence and movement capability would slowly upgrade as enhancements are learned.

	11-01-2001 19:55									#18
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I with the Cheap Cook.

IMO the tech-tree system is fun, the interbranching and prerequisites make for great strategy, and the "decision point" when you pick a tech that you can't change for 10 turns is one of the things that can make you squirm.

Its not the most realistic thing, but as any researcher will tell you, when you drop one project and pick it up a year later, you lose a ton of progress. And IMO it makes it a better game.

	12-01-2001 00:26									#19
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Has anyone played Masters of Orion I?
The tech system they used was so simple. I cant understand why some of you people say it will be less fun and to complicated. It really is simple. and its alot of fun cause you can invest in any catagory you needed at the time.

You can have one catagory for say
-weapons\unit.
-Anthor for buildings
-anthor for tile improvements
-maybe wonders
-city improvments.

what ever you needed at the time you can crank it up to max as if you could only research one at a time or do two or three catagories and buile it equally.

Like someone said earlier alot of tech research was discovered at the same time. Civ 3 should reflect this other wise its just the same old as Civ 1 and Civ 2.


I have made a post a while ago about this and all i got was complaints about my idea. its nice to know that some of you do agree with me.

and for the perosn who told me to keep it KISS (keep it simple stupid) why play a game like civ2 or civ3 since its a complicated game.

Davor

	12-01-2001 00:46									#20
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I like the way SMAC handled this. As an option, you could pick which tech to research next, a la civ, or you could set the game to blind research. And with blind research you could still pick from one to four categories to emphasize your research on (although picking all four essentially meant no particular emphasis).


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	12-01-2001 01:06									#21
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MOO's tech system is infinitely inferior to Civ's.

While admittedly not a "bad" system, it pales in comparison to the simple, perfect, streamlined fun of technology advancement in Civ.

No need to add layers of complexity to what is already one of the most addictive and entertaining aspects of the original.

If they want to add some features, fine, but let's not complicate the ones which are already so inherently beautiful and need no work.

	12-01-2001 15:00									#22
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Cough, cough, sorry if I jump here again, but if you take a look at Technology thread 2.1 (I previusly posted the link to the old version, my apologies) you can see nice and detailed alternative suggestions, included parallel research etc.

Time ago, when discussion about these emerged, I've found very interesting the ideas 24) Prerequisite points and 10) FAMOUS SCIENTISTS.

I'm not sure about the different ways proposed to organize the research, but I'm more liking suggestion 5) TECHNOLOGICAL "FIELDS" CONTAINING MINOR TECHS and 4) RESEARCH PRIORITY SLIDER BARS WITH 'INERTIA'.

I'm in favour of a half-blind research (search in a defined field, not exactly picking on a tech), because stop a human players to chose only a sure, fastest path to a wanted tech, hundred of years early any human can just imagine it!

Prerequisite points based tech tree can be built mainly "hidden" to novice player, it simply let every civ to have a slighty different tech path, without compromising the whole result, and "great scientist" concept would assure a more realistic science enhancement, specially on early age (think Archimede, Galileo, Leonardo da Vinci), while in modern time a single scientist is usually backed up from a team of good researchers that often could gain similar result, just with longer research time.

Research priority slider bar with inertia is a "finesse", I can live without if it result too much hassle for playability.

For sure, I don't think that CIV 2 easy way to search tech is so good to keep it as is

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	12-01-2001 17:47									#23
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Well, if you want to research multiple techs at once, Civ3 could benefit from Imperialism-style research model. It is so simple, easy-to-use and beautiful that in many reviews of Imperialism 1 and 2 reviewers say that "wish they used this system in Civilization games, too!". And it works well, many people have already suggested using it instead of old means.

	12-01-2001 20:02									#24
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For those who are unfamiliar with it, Imperialism gave you 3 concurrent queue slots (later expanded to 4 with a tech advance.) Each slot could be filled with a different specific advance. Each advance had a cost per turn to make progress (increasing gradually for more advanced techs) and could be accelerated (but not doubled) by paying double the cost. So with a fixed amount of research points you can make steady but solid progress across a few techs or focus on just one or two. Having a spy in a country who already possessed a tech you are researching aids progress too.

It suffers slightly IMO from the same inflexibility as Civ because rich nations would always out-perform poorer ones in research. Unlike Civ this is capped slightly by the fact that the mega-rich can not do more than double-cost research on 3 techs. Poor nations can do 0 cost research of a tech already discovered by someone else and get it eventually, too. 0 cost research with an active spy was as fast as the original paid research so it stops the weaker states falling so far behind they get into the pikeman vs tank situation (although they may not be able to afford a large army, of course.)

Imperialism also maps the shifting emphasis between resources like tin, copper, iron, coal etc as new mining techniques and alloys become viable. It only tries to do this for a couple of centuries though, not millennia.

	12-01-2001 21:57									#25
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Christ, I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here.

	14-01-2001 06:09									#27
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Ralf,

quote: ... is there any actual benefit in using parallell research (check my previous, second post) (?).

Flexibility is the answer. Please follow my explanation:

CIV 2 like - single queue
You are at peace, so begin to search for a Build (SMAC field are used here for example) research. Nine turn of research are required.

After 5 turn you suddendly meet a powerful Civ, that menace you with a more advanced weapon.

You must "keep the border" for another 4 turn, then switch to military and, after 13 turn you have the needed tech... if you aren't already crushed and buried
OR you must switch research to military, loosing 4 turns flat of research in "Build", and after nine turn you gain the needed military tech

CIV 3 proposed - multiple queue

You are at peace, so begin to search for
33% Build (SMAC field are used here for example) research.
33% Explore
33% Military

Now 3*9 = twentyseven turn of research are required to gain everyone of the mentioned advance.

After 5 turn you suddendly meet a powerful Civ, that menace you with a more advanced weapon.

You can divert 100% of reserch bulb to military, freezing the other two research field.

You have already researched 5/27 of military advance, so switching full steam you'll get it in 7 turn (maybe 8, it depends from rounding).

You'll have your "bandaid" in place one-two turns earlier, and you'll save the research on the other fields for the next peaceful time.

Disclaimer: I'm almost sleeping, so if I mess up the math please tell me gently

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	27-05-2001 11:36									#29
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Read the initial website quote about the need for parallell tech-tree advancements.

Since this seems to be a subjects there civers like to have opinions upon, and since many newcomers have been registrated at Apolyton lately, I thought it would be worthwhile to resurface this issue again. Any additonal comments?

	27-05-2001 23:53									#30
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I don't see why you would want to research multiple things at a time. Let's you say you want to research four things at a time. It will take you 20 turns to get all four things. If you research each one individually it will take you 5 turns for each tech. So ultimately you'll wind up with all four techs at the same time either way. Along the way of getting the fourth tech you'll be able to use the other 3 techs. So why would you wait 20 turns to be able to use any of the techs? At least when you're researching individually you'll be able to use the techs, as you're researching. Does this make sense to anyone?