11-03-2002 00:21									#1
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I've been experimenting with these colorless units, land based versions of the Privateer. I even found some cool graphics for them, thanks to a few unit creators over at Civ Fanatics. I was a bit concerned that I might be making things a little to easy for myself that way, that the AI wouldn't be able to use them properly. Well there's been this one area in my last game where I've had to fight them off continously, sometimes 3 or 4 at a time, compliments of India. They'll come in and attack anything that moves, especially my Workers.

I decided to pack in that game in the Industrial Era, to make some changes, and figured I'd have a look around using the cheat. Well good lord, at least 90% of India's cities were producing these units, and he had a decent sized empire. If I would have kept going, I would have ended up fighting off wave after wave of these pesky interlopers. So if anyone is wondering whether using them is cheating, not a chance! I think they add an interesting challenge to the game, and they certainly keep me on my toes during peacetime.

	11-03-2002 01:16									#2
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I remember that Sorencommented on this behavieor a while back. He said that he liked the way the AI developed its own strategy for them.

	11-03-2002 01:22									#3
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Sounds great! I guess there is some AI programming to allow it to use the privateers in a "human" way. The funny thing is I dont recall seeing many (if any) AI privateers and I dont build them much because there are no trade vessels for them to attack. Maybe the AI doesnt use the privateer for the same reason, but put it on land and voila, chaos!

	11-03-2002 02:42									#4
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Well one thing I've noticed is that the AI isn't very good about building ships period. In all of the games I've played so far, at least in the early periods, I've been pretty much the only one bothering with a navy. Which would probably explain why they don't build Privateers.

A curious thing I noticed about the AI building colorless units. The other civs weren't building them as much as India. The Aztecs were building regular forces, and the Babs were focusing on improvements, and both only had the odd colorless unit under construction. So it seems that since I was harassing India's borders with my "renegades", that Gandhi decided
use the same tactics against me. Rather interesting!

	11-03-2002 04:26									#5
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quote: So it seems that since I was harassing India's borders with my "renegades", that Gandhi decided use the same tactics against me.

That would suggest either that the units were not truly "colourless" and the AI was responding to your aggression in kind or the AI was using the presence of those units to focus its build program and you were the main target of the "landed" privateers, perhaps based upon your diplomatic situation.

I would guess that the programming for the activities of a colourless land unit would be similar to that of the barbarians. I wonder what would happen if such a unit attacked and took a city?

	11-03-2002 04:42									#6
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No they aren't totally colorless, the AI knows who they belong to. It just can't do anything about it, and it can feel free to attack with them whenever it likes. Anytime I use them, I can forget about any sort peaceful co-oexistance between us. He gets furious and he stays furious, though he doesn't declare war because of them. And no, the colorless unit is exactly like a normal one, except that you don't have to be at war in order to attack with one. It makes no difference whether you capture a city with one of them, or a unit of your regular troops.

	11-03-2002 05:04									#7
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It will be an interesting way to influence the outcomes of wars.

	11-03-2002 06:03									#8
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Well I suspect having these "no name" units running around whacking their neighbours will make politics in my game somewhat more volatile. No doubt the other civs will be at war with each other a bit more than before. I can't say it was all that helpful in trying to get India to attack me though. I had scads of troops all along the border, just itching for some action, but Gandhi never had the nerve to declare war. I was hoping he'd make the first move, but he never did. Good thing for him, I would have slaughtered him, and he probably knew that to.

	11-03-2002 06:25									#9
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I think colorless units are like pirates and terrorists. Other countries suspect they are sponsored by you, but can't proove it to the international community. The diplomacy doesn't seem to be sophistacted enough to handle all the what-ifs, and there isn't an event tab in the editor *sigh.*

Wouldn't that be something if you attacked another civ with enough privateers that they initiate a naval blockade of your cities or start raiding your coastal installations themselves in retaliation?

	11-03-2002 06:47									#10
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Well that's exactly what I think Gandhi was doing in that game I've mentioned. That's the only way I can explain why he was devoting so much of his production to making them. The other civs were making a few here and there, but he had almost every city in his empire producing them. Since he didn't want a full scale war, he was preparing to use every means at his disposal to try and hurt me, using my own tactics against me. With a vengeneance! It was really very interesting to see, almost like he had learned a trick from me.

	12-03-2002 13:48									#11
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Well, I have been using these so called colorless unit alot in my last game (I used the Bandit animation and give it submarine/hidden nationality) and did the AI know how to use it!! The AI used them as I planned, mainly to capture unprotected workers. The AI also used to to attack border cities. The only trouble is we will know who capture the worker as it shows under the F3 screen as unit lost to.

Anyway, I thought this is sort of a very good way to go into a small scale war without declaration of war and like Willem said, the AI build them alot too.

And after a few of these attack by the Zulu on the American for a while, the American finally declare war on the Zulu.

And by giving them the submarine ability, you can't see them until you try to move a unit into the tile they are in, which means great unit for ambush!!

And they don't shows in F3 screen too even if you have spy planted in the other Civ3.

	12-03-2002 22:33									#12
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Hey Dark Sheer, nice to see you hanging out here at Apolyton. When does everyone here start to see some of your great units? I really like the Bandit, it's perfect for a colorless unit.

I tried playing with the submarine flag, but it was a bit much for me. I like to able to see what just whacked the unit that was in my border post, at least it gives me the chance to counterattack. Plus I noticed that the AI is uncanny when it comes to spotting them when they're not supposed to. I do have one unit with that ability, a Saboteur, but it's only a 1/1 so it can't do any major damage to anyone, except to Workers. It has paradrop range 6, 2 moves, all terrain as roads. I haven't tried it out yet, but the idea is for him to drop behind enemy lines and pillage whatever he can, before he's intercepted and destroyed.

	13-03-2002 07:57									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Hey Dark Sheer, nice to see you hanging out here at Apolyton. When does everyone here start to see some of your great units? I really like the Bandit, it's perfect for a colorless unit. I tried playing with the submarine flag, but it was a bit much for me. I like to able to see what just whacked the unit that was in my border post, at least it gives me the chance to counterattack. Plus I noticed that the AI is uncanny when it comes to spotting them when they're not supposed to. I do have one unit with that ability, a Saboteur, but it's only a 1/1 so it can't do any major damage to anyone, except to Workers. It has paradrop range 6, 2 moves, all terrain as roads. I haven't tried it out yet, but the idea is for him to drop behind enemy lines and pillage whatever he can, before he's intercepted and destroyed.

Hi Willem

I do hangout at Apolyton too. Its just that I tend to post less here as compared to CFC.

As to my units' animation, anyone can grab them from Civfanatics and post them here on my behalf. I am ok with that.

As to the submarine flag, it works well as the Bandit unit retreat when its down to 1hp and at least it will not get destroyed as the AI can no longer see it. I use to have my Special Ops units (hidden nationality but without submarine ability) in modern time get hammered by the AI (the AI will throw everything at those units eventhough the unit can take alot of punishments) so I always need to move a whole stack of my Special Ops instead of 1 so they have a chance of survival

	13-03-2002 16:09									#14
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Well I'm certainly glad I didn't use the submarine flag for my units, after having a non-stop run-in with the Russian "renegades" in my current game. Geez, they just keep coming and coming. I've given them one move "All Terrain as Roads" with a defence of 3, and I'm having a hell of a time dislodging them from the jungle I find myself stuck in. I made my horse units "Wheeled", so they're almost useless to me in this situation, and my Swordsmen aren't quite up to the task without Catapult support. It's turning out to be an interesting challenge. I'm slowly advancing, but I've had to fight for every inch. I've definitely created a monster!

	13-03-2002 16:53									#15
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I wonder what would happen if such a unit attacked and took a city?

From Vel's comments made while he was working on the Mod with No Name^TM, colorless units can indeed take over a city. Makes it kind of obvious who is sending that particular unit though!!

	13-03-2002 18:43									#16
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Willem

These units certainly are monsters! My colourless units are middle age "mercenaries" based upon the Swiss pikemen and I've made them FORMIDABLE units (as they were in history). The AI civs on both sides of me are making them in abundance, marching them into my territory, and attacking anything that moves. This may not be a mod for players who prefer not to spend their time constantly fighting.

	14-03-2002 03:15									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns From Vel's comments made while he was working on the Mod with No NameTM, colorless units can indeed take over a city. Makes it kind of obvious who is sending that particular unit though!!

Well it is obvious anyway, so it doesn't really matter. The term colorless isn't quite right, since I can still see the Russian brown in the rings of the hordes that are attacking me now. And the other civs know that it's my units when they attack, he just can't make an internatinal incident of it. Which means anytime you use those things, your diplomatic relations goes all to hell with the receiving civ.

	14-03-2002 03:25									#18
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Willem These units certainly are monsters! My colourless units are middle age "mercenaries" based upon the Swiss pikemen and I've made them FORMIDABLE units (as they were in history). The AI civs on both sides of me are making them in abundance, marching them into my territory, and attacking anything that moves. This may not be a mod for players who prefer not to spend their time constantly fighting.

Yes they certainly do keep you busy don't they? At least peacetime will never be boring again. It seems the specs really make a difference in whether the AI uses them well. I didn't have them in such an abundance before I made a couple of changes to their numbers. Now they won't stop coming, especially from Russia'a direction. I have to question my own wisdom at times giving them all terrain as roads for their movement, they seem to pop up all over the place. At least I didn't make them to strong offensively, their big thing is defence, making them tough to get rid of. Especially in the middle of the jungle.

One good thing about them, there's more chances for getting a Great Leader. I managed to save myself a lot of time building my FP in my current game, something I don't usually get a chance to do. To bad my second Leader got whacked shortly after he appeared. Bummer!

	14-03-2002 04:05									#19
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I didnt think of the potential great leader benefits. So you think that the AI didnt make as many when their specs were lower? Thats kind of in-line with my first guesses as to what's going on just now with the AI colourless building boom since the "mercenaries" will be the most powerful non UU until riflemen (I think). As it stands right now this is no world for a builder!

	14-03-2002 04:38									#20
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Well is seems to me that it's building more than it did before, but I can't really be positive. Previously I didn't have a unique graphic for them, so I may not have noticed how many of them there actually were, they just looked Swordsman. Plus like I said, I gave them "all terrain as roads", so now they can reach my outposts a lot quicker than they used to, which could make it seem like there's more.

Well sure it's still a builder's world, it's just a bit more of a challenge.