11-03-2002 07:18									#31
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Boring. Many people discovered America in turn. Like that Irish monk Brendan, who apparently got there in the 6th century.

Zheng He may or may not have reached America, but it makes absolutely no difference.

	11-03-2002 07:28									#32
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If you bothered to read the comments I quoted, it appears that Brendan did not go to the Americas.

	11-03-2002 07:35									#33
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A friend of mine once wondered, why is that some design found on Mexican earthware bears such a striking semblence to the Chinese dragon design?

Of course, it can be sheer coincidence.

	11-03-2002 07:50									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Fiera What's this Piri Reis map mystery, Chris?

Ade gave some good info on the map, I can add it was found in a butcher shop in Athens, as a wall decoration a hundred years ago!



Some say it's a fake, but who knows?

	11-03-2002 07:51									#35
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Zheng He's voyages are of great interest, but the most dubious claim here is that he managed to round Cape Horn, perhaps the most dangerous passage on the planet. Chinese sailing vessels were certainly advanced for their time, but I don't think they can compare with the maneuverability of Euro ships a full century of intense exploration and improvement later.

IIRC, Chinese ships had water-tight compartments. Wouldn't this be more important for getting around the Cape Horn than maneuverability?

	11-03-2002 07:54									#36
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The short answer is "no".

A slightly longer answer would be to direct you to descriptions of Cape Horn. All the water-tight compartments in the world aren't going to help you if you run aground in the type of seas endemic to the Cape.

Even when traversing the Cape had become almost routine sailors still were describing it as hell on Earth. I'm not saying that it would be impossible to do so, just that no sailor in his right mind would have done it in a 15th century Chinese oceangoing vessel.

	11-03-2002 08:01									#37
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I can see a possibility of Zheng crossing the Pacific and dropping anchor on the west coast of the New World, but it seems odd that there would be no official documentation of this voyage. IIRC his voyages to eastern Africa were well-documented.

	11-03-2002 08:03									#38
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Guys, the reason the Phonecian connection bears closer examination is that the galleys from the Med would not have had to go on the open sea....if such a journey had been made, it would no doubt have been a LONG journey, and probably with a fleet of ships, rather than just a small contingent. They'd have had to hug the continents, round the tip of Africa, trace Asia to Japan, thence to the Aleutians and down the North American coast.

The interesting thing (and one of the most compelling bits of evidence) is that many of the tribes along that very path make woven baskets Phonecian style (triangular hatching) rather than the cross hatch style common in all other N. Amer tribes (those further inland). There are other bits of evidence as well, but I don't have my sources close at hand, and that was the one that stuck out in my mind.

I'm thinking they coulda done it, and TALK about an epic adventure!....

-=Vel=-

	11-03-2002 08:03									#39
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Thanks, Chris and Ade!

But perhaps the Piri Reis map is not so great a mystery after all, we do know that ancient and middle ages map makers used to make up the parts that had yet to be discovered, like they always used to include a continent called "Terra Australis" just because they thought "it had to be there".

	11-03-2002 08:06									#40
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The real mystery is that it shows what Anartica looks like without ice, which was confirmed by US sonar soundings in the 1960s!

	11-03-2002 08:07									#41
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It also joins SA to Antarctica if I'm reading it correctly.

	11-03-2002 08:14									#42
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Don't forget....

The Crusaders!

What? Have I flipped my lid?

Short answer "Maybe".

My History Prof discussed how the Aztecs discribed Quatezcoatol the "First time" he visited Mesoamerica. White, Bearded, and he wore a Red Cross on his clothing. (doesn't say if the background was white). Supposebly, he arrived in "The Year of the One Reed", and said he would return when the YotOR came around again. The Aztec calender is a cycle, like the Chinese, and one "Year of the One Reed" puts it amazingly close to the crusades.

Interesting.


I personally doubt the Phoenicians made it to the New World, Thor Heyerdal not withstanding. But there is plenty of evidence, on both sides of the atlantic, that Africans had made it across before Columbus did. (Spaniards noted "Negro settlements" in Panama long before Spanish colonies were established.)

	11-03-2002 08:17									#43
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It also joins SA to Antarctica if I'm reading it correctly.

Or it's just the southern portion of SA, twisted around. Not a particularly satisfying explanation, but it is the current "establishment" position on the issue.

	11-03-2002 08:19									#44
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I don't know....even I would be able to tell the difference between sailing East and sailing South.

	11-03-2002 08:50									#45
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It also joins SA to Antarctica if I'm reading it correctly.

Yes, that's what I read too, that's why I thought Piri Reis was just making up the coastline south of what had already been discovered in 1513.

I bet some Spanish maps around the same year show similar coastline shapes.

	11-03-2002 09:23									#46
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I don't know....even I would be able to tell the difference between sailing East and sailing South.

As I said, not a particularly satisfying explanation, but what are the alternatives?

	11-03-2002 09:29									#47
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It's a fake?

	11-03-2002 09:31									#48
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It's a fake?

Possible, but I haven't seen the basis for that assertion... from what I understood, it has been definitively dated to the early 16th Century... Chris, do you have a link to those who say its a forgery? I'd be interested to see their position...

	11-03-2002 09:33									#49
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Oh...it's all part of an Illuminatus disinformation campaign....or something...

-=Vel=-

	11-03-2002 09:35									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Oh...it's all part of an Illuminatus disinformation campaign....or something... -=Vel=-

Of course! NOW it all makes sense. And I'm sure the Priory of Sion is involved somehow as well.

	11-03-2002 09:37									#51
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Has it been (definitively dated, that is)? I really had only the barest knowledge of this map before today. I thought its authenticity was still up for grabs.

	11-03-2002 09:37									#52
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Shhhh! Guy....you weren't s'posed to reveal that! I'll make some phone calls and activate a few agents to make sure there's no proof of that surfacing, 'k?

-=Vel=-

	11-03-2002 09:40									#53
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Of course, mon Nautonnier.

	11-03-2002 09:44									#54
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Has it been (definitively dated, that is)? I really had only the barest knowledge of this map before today. I thought its authenticity was still up for grabs.

I thought it had been dated, but perhaps I'm thinking of something else. Nevertheless, I'd still like to see the explanation of those who hold that it's a forgery. Simply at a glance, without any other evidence, that's certainly more likely than the coast of SA being swung over to the East, which (I think) is the current "establishment" view...

	11-03-2002 09:44									#55
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::as he idly spins his sigil ring on his finger::



-=Vel=-

	11-03-2002 10:07									#56
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It's all academic, really. How many great discoveries and inventions have been lost through the mists of time? In any case, it doesn't alter the profound effect that it had on european thought at the time. The concept of this supposed great secret known only by Columbus about the existence of America via the chinese is highly dubious, and profoundly baseless.

	11-03-2002 10:08									#57
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Well, the thing does show a bay where Cape Horn is supposed to be so there's a possibility that they could've made an assumption after avoiding the perils of the cape and headed south. What I can't see is how they could've charted the Antarctic though. Is that a close approximation to the real shape?
500-odd years ago shouldn't have seen that continent any more navigable than it is today.

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Oh...it's all part of an Illuminatus disinformation campaign....or something... -=Vel=-

First all the strategy threads, then the inferences in the "Lands of Lorraine", now this. I'm starting to wonder about this Hartpence chap...

	11-03-2002 10:26									#58
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Also, I think that another discouraging detail in the Piri Reis map is the apparent presence of dhow type vessels in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. I'd say this map was more likely a copy of the first maps of the Americas made by the Spanish.

	11-03-2002 11:18									#59
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--Wanders in waving von Daniken's flag--

And the REALLY weird thing from some of these maps (including the one posted above) is that they are accurate Mercator projections of the landforms, ie distorted out of shape from them being positioned on a globe, and not just flat maps. (Space Aliens gave humans these maps, of course.)

There are bits of evidence in Sth Amer that the Phoenicians made it first - some Phoenician-type figures in native art, and the rock in the Brazilian jungle with Phoenician symbols on it. Also some rather enigmatic ruins in New England (Virginia I think).

Vel - I hadn't heard the idea that the journey might have been all the way around Asia , but it's no secret they planned what were by ancient standards HUGE sea journeys - theirs was the expertise that led a Pharaoh's expedition right around Africa about 1000 BCE, and they routinely collected tin etc from Spain and the British Isles.

Of course my favourite theory involves Atlantis. I suggest you try to find Otto Muck's book on it - it's all quite fantastic, yet at the same time rather convincing (combining highly advanced people, the proliferation of the Basques around the world, Easter Island, and one giant MF of a meteorite!)

	11-03-2002 11:22									#60
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Oh, and of course the fact that one of these maps was verified about 45 years ago (the International Geophysical Year) to have accurate depictions of the land in Antarctica - land that has been covered and obscured by ice for over 10000 years.

Well then.

There you go.