11-03-2002 11:23									#61
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Firstly, yah, makes no difference. Columbus and then Vespizuchi were more important in that they opened up the Americans to colonization.

Secondly... the biggest ships in Zheng He's fleet were 4 times the size of Columbus' Santa Maria. To cross the Cape of Good Hope, wouldn't have worked well for ships that freaking large. They wouldn't be able to manuver.

Those ships though were probably more impressive that European ships one hundred years later (though the Arab Dows were very impressive in that time as well).

	11-03-2002 11:23									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Chinese? yeah right! It has already been proven that the Vikings got there first (after the native Americans), and there is some evidence that the Phoenicians got there millenia before them even.

This is what cheese's me off about history. When they know Lief Ericson came here first, and not Columbus. They dont accept it, because it challenges current thought.


Well its true..Viking were here before columbus. 400 years before him. And before that? An Indian Civilization had to have came here bye ship. Some kind of civilization that populated all those islands in the pacific .. They just dont pop up out of the ground.

	11-03-2002 12:01									#63
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quote: They just dont pop up out of the ground

Funny you should use that phrase. The Amerindians used a land bridge across the current location of the Bering Strait to enter the Americas. This happened during the last Ice Age, probably ~20 000 years ago.

	11-03-2002 12:43									#64
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Regarding the Piri Reis map, and Antarctica, I've seen two likely explanations:

1. The Antarctica-like piece of land was simply a convention for terra incongnito (like "here lies dragons.")

2. The mapmaker screwed up, but didn't want to waste his expensive parchment, so when he ran out of room Southward, he translated the rest of the map by pi/2 radians.

	11-03-2002 13:05									#65
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Funny you should use that phrase. The Amerindians used a land bridge across the current location of the Bering Strait to enter the Americas. This happened during the last Ice Age, probably ~20 000 years ago.

That was an ice bridge though right? Even today the Bering straits are supposed to be almost passable at times. Back during the end of the ice age (~30k yrs ago IIRC) it should have been much more so. That was never the case with a large number of the South Pacific islands considering their locations and the great distances involved.

	11-03-2002 13:15									#66
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quote: Funny you should use that phrase. The Amerindians used a land bridge across the current location of the Bering Strait to enter the Americas. This happened during the last Ice Age, probably ~20 000 years ago.

There probably were Polynesian cultures who island-hopped to the Americas.

quote: I'd say this map was more likely a copy of the first maps of the Americas made by the Spanish.

Actually, I'd bet that it's a copy of a Portuguese map, since it maps the coast of Brazil so well, much of which the Portuguese probably knew for decades before Colombus' expedition, while the Carribean is relatively badly mapped.

But I'm sure it'd be a hell of a story how Christian Iberian maps got in the hands of a Turkish admiral...

	11-03-2002 13:30									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo There probably were Polynesian cultures who island-hopped to the Americas

Possibly (even probably, maybe).

The original colonising populatin certainly didn't come that way, though, and whatever Polynesians got blown ashore didn't have much of an effect on the makeup of the American populations.

	11-03-2002 13:32									#68
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon That was an ice bridge though right?

It might well have been glaciated, but even the supporting land was probably above sea level. Sea levels during that period were 600-1000 metres lower than today.

	11-03-2002 13:43									#69
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quote: The original colonising populatin certainly didn't come that way, though, and whatever Polynesians got blown ashore didn't have much of an effect on the makeup of the American populations.

Of course.

quote: Possibly (even probably, maybe).

Consider the existence of coconut palms, sweet potatoes, and a multitude of other crops indigenous to South, South East Asia and various Pacific Islands, as well as South America.

	11-03-2002 20:34									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Actually, I'd bet that it's a copy of a Portuguese map, since it maps the coast of Brazil so well, much of which the Portuguese probably knew for decades before Colombus' expedition, while the Carribean is relatively badly mapped.

No need to talk about decades before Columbus. The Portuguese had been exploring the coast of Brazil since 1500, 13 years before the Piri Reis map.

quote: But I'm sure it'd be a hell of a story how Christian Iberian maps got in the hands of a Turkish admiral...

Yes, that puzzles me as well, but as a matter of a fact Turkish diplomatic missions in western Europe were quite frequent.

Spain and France signed a treaty (in 1500, Treaty of Granada) to attack the Kingdom of Naples, allegedly because the King of Naples was allied with the Turks. After the Spanish conquest of Naples, the Spanish Viceroy Gonzalo (Gonsalvo) de Córdoba received a Turkish embassy (1504), where rich presents were offered by both nations. I'm sure a map of the New World would be a highly valuable exchange good.

	11-03-2002 21:12									#71
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Here is a site that talks about the map and how authentic it maybe:

http://www.prep.mcneese.edu/engr/en...is/piri_r~1.htm

They give an alternate explanation as to where the map was found, but I still remember the other, maybe that was wrong, one never knows.

	11-03-2002 21:13									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Menzies says Chinese maps passed to the West through the Portuguese, by way of an Italian traveller, Nicolo da Conti, who went on some of their voyages. Don Pedro, son of Portugal's King Joao I kept the resulting map of the world as a state secret.

Hey, this could explain why the portuguese demanded in the Tordesilles treaty more 100 miles to the west, which was later known that Brazil was included inside those extra 100 miles. This is one of the biggest portuguese history's mistery!

Still, this rises another important question. Why didn't the portuguese crown support Columbus voyage, then? He went to the portuguese crown asking fo support before going to the spanish crown!

	11-03-2002 22:05									#73
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Thanks again for that link, Chris!

On the translation to the Notes written on the map, Piri Reis refer to the New World as discovered by "a Genoese infidel named Colombo". The text also says "The coasts and island on this map are taken from Colombo's map", (at the end of Note V).

So if we can trust the translation, I wouldn't talk about a real mystery here, at least the map origins are clear.

Check the translated notes here: http://www.prep.mcneese.edu/engr/en...preis/notes.htm

	11-03-2002 23:16									#74
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quote: Secondly... the biggest ships in Zheng He's fleet were 4 times the size of Columbus' Santa Maria. To cross the Cape of Good Hope, wouldn't have worked well for ships that freaking large. They wouldn't be able to manuver.

Well, don't forget that the giant Treasure Ships were very few in number, they were the prized flagships of the fleet. There were many smaller ships perhaps better able to weather those seas. The fleet which alledgedly reached North America broke off from the main fleet, which took Zheng He (and perhaps the Treasure Ships) home, maybe to witness the opening of the Forbidden City. The rest of the fleet did not return until a year later.

Here are some more details concerning Zheng He's fleets. All of this is from When China Ruled the Seas: The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne (Louise LeVathes, Oxford University Press, 1994). Following B&W images are from this book, color photos are from Heavenly Creations - Gems of Ancient Chinese Inventions (Hong Kong Musem of History, 1998).


At the time of Zheng He's voyages, China posessed about 1,700 ocean-going vessels of all sizes.

During the Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644) the main design used for ocean-going ships was the fuchuan. This type of vessel was suited for rough seas, featuring sharply-pointed v-shaped hulls, and wide overhanging decks. The prow & stern were very high. They usually had four decks, the lowest of which was filled with ballast. Marco Polo described a voyage in ships of the fuchuan type, which he described as having four masts, nine sails, and a crew of about 250 men. Chinese vessels from the eleventh century onward used floating compasses for navigation.

The ships of Zheng He's Treasure Fleets were based largely on the fuchuan's design. The biggest of them, the Treasure Ships, were probably about 400 feet long, and about 160 feet wide, with nine staggered (not in-line) masts bearing 12 square sails of red silk cloth. The hulls were divided into watertight compartments. The prow had special chambers designed to take in water when the ship pitched forward in heavy waves. This device, along with special floating anchors, provided stabilization in rough seas.

Below: fuchuan-style ship

	11-03-2002 23:18									#75
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Model of a Treasure Ship. The exact design is not known - oddly, there are no surviving drawings.

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	11-03-2002 23:21									#76
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Treasure Ship (about 400 ft) compared with Columbus' Santa Maria (85 ft).

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	11-03-2002 23:23									#77
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Model of a Ming Dynasty anti-ship cruise missile. The four rockets (probably angled downward) propelled the missile as it skimmed the surface towards its target. When it neared the enemy ship, a time-delayed fuse ignited a volley of rocket-propelled arrows which burst forth from the mouth.

Attachment: zh4.jpg
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	11-03-2002 23:24									#78
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Twelfth-century sidewheeler, propelled by man-powered treadmills. Used for river and lake battles. They were equipped with archers, rams, and sometimes even catapults for hurling gunpowder bombs.

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	11-03-2002 23:32									#79
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Found a news links about this story:

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/pr...,106236,00.html

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/2...306_91553.shtml

And a little about Zheng He:

http://www.china2thou.com/9805p7.htm

I will be quite interested to see what the scholars think of the evidence to be presented.

	17-03-2002 18:17									#80
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Zheng He's voyages are of great interest, but the most dubious claim here is that he managed to round Cape Horn, perhaps the most dangerous passage on the planet. Chinese sailing vessels were certainly advanced for their time, but I don't think they can compare with the maneuverability of Euro ships a full century of intense exploration and improvement later.

European were practically inferior to the Chinese until about 1800's AD.European ships were too inferior until the coming of the spanish armada which i think has the equal quality if not the Chinese's bigger
Hell I am so damn proud to be a Chinese we have become a superpower for many millenia (except during the 19 th and 20 th which we have countless of internal wars and political chaos)

AOA or Chris 62 hell you are here too troublemaker ,CFC will forever be "dirty" as long as u r there.Yeah i still remember u r the mod who cause flame war in my thread and closed it for your own selfish purpose

	17-03-2002 19:48									#81
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quote: European were practically inferior to the Chinese until about 1800's AD.European ships were too inferior until the coming of the spanish armada which i think has the equal quality if not the Chinese's bigger Hell I am so damn proud to be a Chinese we have become a superpower for many millenia (except during the 19 th and 20 th which we have countless of internal wars and political chaos) AOA or Chris 62 hell you are here too troublemaker ,CFC will forever be "dirty" as long as u r there.Yeah i still remember u r the mod who cause flame war in my thread and closed it for your own selfish purpose

	17-03-2002 20:12									#82
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I'll still go with Brendan, just because.

Oh, and I don't think we can say that the Amerindians discovered America, that's like asking who discovered Mesopatamia or Europe.

Really, I got out of high school fairly recently and in my American History class we were divided into teams to find out who discovered America. The different possibilities were the Amerindians, the Vikings, Columbus, Brendan, and probably one or two other nobodies. So, it's not like we're blindly accepting Columbus, we just consider him the most important discoverer of America, because he got the ball rolling on expansion to the Americas.