11-03-2002 03:04									#1
	Soren: About AI building Suffering from ads?

When I reached the Industrial Era, I decided to use the cheat and have a look around to see how the AI was dealing with my changes to the game. One thing I noticed, India had built the Forbidden Palace in the city right next to the Palace. Now that is a rather stupid use of a valuable building IMO. It would probably provide more of a challenge if the AI would actually use this structure effectively, rather than just building it anywhere. Wouldn't it be possible to include some sort of sub-routine that won't allow it to build the FP within a certain radius of the Palace? Like somewhere well outside the Palace's sphere of influence, whatever that is?

	11-03-2002 06:14									#2
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True. But I'll go you one better. . .

I am invading and conquering a civ. Instead of it building the military units it desperately needs to force me to the peace table - it starts building a Happiness Wonder!!!

That stupid, stupid, AI.

	11-03-2002 06:19									#3
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but willem, cripling corruption and war weariness ont seem to bother or effect the AI.

	11-03-2002 06:23									#4
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I could solve your problem. But only when they release the damn SOURCE CODE.

That's spelled:

S, O, U, R, C, E, [SPACE], C, O, D, E

	11-03-2002 08:08									#5
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Yes, the AI builds strange things on the strangest moments.

In my last game, there was a bloody world war involving at least four out of six civs. Suddenly, I get the message that "Civ A is building Happiness Wonder X", followed by similar messages involving all the other civs. With the new tech trading system (post-1.17), one of the civs discovered the tech that allowed Wonder X and soon all civs, even those at war, started to build the damn thing.

The AI, of course, does not value things the way we do. For it, a cultural building is important no matter when or where.

Now I know that what Willem suggested CAN be implemented... because you just have to tell the AI to build the FP on a city that is located at least X number of squares from the capital.

Similarly, the AI could be instructed to build only military units whenever there is a war. But then its cities would riot endlessly... unless war weariness does not affect it. If this is true, then this "sub-routine" could be implemented, I guess.

	11-03-2002 09:33									#6
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Well I don't think that's bad, I'll always try to build a Wonder if I'm at war, if it comes up. If the opportunity arises, you have to take advantage of it, or someone will beat you to the punch. And it's only one city out of production, that's not going to make that much of a difference really.

The bulk of everyone's forces are units that have been built previously, anything constructed during the conflict is not going to tip the scales that much. It might help, but the outcome is already determined if there was no pre-planning. That's why the AI quite often does so poorly, it can't make plans for an adequate future offence/defence, it only relies on the units it's created on a whim. "Hmmm, I have these 5 Archers I built a hundred years ago, let's get those guys into the fray."

As for the FP, that's a very small detail that might help make the AI a bit more challenging. Forcing it to build no closer than say 35 squares from the Palace would go a long way towards making the AI civ more efficient, and wouldn't be that difficult to implement. They're doing the same sort of thing with the civ spacing in the World Sizes area of the editor. Just building it right next door to the Palace is simply ridiculous.

Last edited by Willem on 11-03-2002 at 09:40

	11-03-2002 15:28									#7
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The FP right next to the Palace is a sign of weakness. Awkwardly put, this means that the AI does not build efficiently.

[QUOTE]I could solve your problem. But only when they release the damn SOURCE CODE.

That's spelled:

S, O, U, R, C, E, [SPACE], C, O, D, E[/QUOTE

WTFIT? I thought SOURCE CODE was spelled "J, H, I, I, G, Z, Z, 8, [SPACE], *, %, F, 65762, @!, JGS"

Why did you do that?

Steele

	11-03-2002 16:02									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 I could solve your problem. But only when they release the damn SOURCE CODE. That's spelled: S, O, U, R, C, E, [SPACE], C, O, D, E

They didn't pay their programmers for years constructing the program to just give it away to their competitors. Releasing the source code is asking for too much from any computer games company.

	11-03-2002 17:19									#9
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There could be a governor API. I'd like to program my governors.

I think that the worst thing to build is a Courthouse in the capital. Same works for Police Station.
Regarding the FP: The A.I. territory usually shrinks during the game so that it is a good decision to build the FP next to the Palace. The location of the capital is usually safer than a border town. The A.I. doesn't like to build Harbors or Barracks. That hurts trade.

	11-03-2002 17:31									#10
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LOL Forbidden Palace right next to the capital? Hehehe. You have to admit some of the stuff the AI does is pretty funny.

	11-03-2002 17:42									#11
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quote: Originally posted by MonsterMan They didn't pay their programmers for years constructing the program to just give it away to their competitors. Releasing the source code is asking for too much from any computer games company.

Rebellion released AvP's scource code within a year of release. I'm just hopeing.

	11-03-2002 18:46									#12
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quote: I could solve your problem. But only when they release the damn SOURCE CODE.

it would be nice, but they could have atleast left the AI source code open. (i think CTP2 did it with SLCI or sumthing)




anyway, i think with a bit of time, a decent AI could be built by just basically building a program made of 'IF' and 'WHEN' loops. basically, program the AI to do stuf, this may make the AI pretictable after a while though, ut heck, its that already.

	11-03-2002 20:11									#13
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Some of the Happiness wonders are absolutly CRUCIAL on civ III, and i'd build them whether i was losing a war or not, The Sistine Chappel can turn the tide of any game.

	11-03-2002 23:17									#14
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man anyway, i think with a bit of time, a decent AI could be built by just basically building a program made of 'IF' and 'WHEN' loops.

You might as well build a switch in a do... while loop. Or well. I'm still having fun tweaking AvPGE! I made those damn AL|ENS faster and smarter (they ALL know where you are at all times now!)

	11-03-2002 23:38									#15
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eg (i dont prgram but did a lil qbasic once)

IF Human Has 2 Cavalry on border
THEN AI#2 Builds 1 TO 4 Rifleman



thats the idea i ment. but do LOTS of them.

	12-03-2002 02:54									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 You might as well build a switch in a do... while loop. Or well. I'm still having fun tweaking AvPGE! I made those damn AL|ENS faster and smarter (they ALL know where you are at all times now!)

They released AvPGE source? Interesting. Haven't played in awhile, played online a bit though (Always played as a Marine, under the moniker TheOrkinMan). I'd love to fight some upgraded bugs...

Venger

	12-03-2002 09:19									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Venger They released AvPGE source? Interesting. Haven't played in awhile, played online a bit though (Always played as a Marine, under the moniker TheOrkinMan). I'd love to fight some upgraded bugs... Venger

It should still be at http://www.avpnews.com , its a 10MB download. You'll need MS C++ 6 and MS DirectX 8 SDK to compile and build it. You can get the DirectX SDK from MS's website. The code is kinda hard to read (it's all #define statements), but it's neat to look at how they did it.

	12-03-2002 10:57									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Willem As for the FP, that's a very small detail that might help make the AI a bit more challenging.

Might? A bit? Building a forbidden palace in the correct spot (as opposed to right next to your capital) essentially DOUBLES your total production under every government except for Communism (under which all cities are equally WORTHLESS). That AI civ with the FP next to the palace is only building about half the number of things that it could, only has half the number of cities that could viably build a wonder or pump out a unit per turn, is only netting about half the trade (and ergo half the science beakers), and so on and so forth. The AI for Emperor and Monarch might have nominal discounts on production and research, but if they do bonehead things like that forbidden palace, that 10-20% bonus turns into a 30%-40% DEFICIT versus a competent human, even before the "having a brain" advantage is factored in.

Though it may not fix all the bonehead strategic moves the AI tries, having it place forbidden palaces in optimal spots would make it go a LONG ways towards being competitive in difficulties where it should enjoy a slight advantage.

	12-03-2002 18:53									#19
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Sorry, I did not provide the background to the facts I depicted above. When I said that there was a war going on, and that the war involved four out of six nations, I forgot to say that two of those warring nations were fighting for their own survival. They had only two or three cities, and were in a war that could cost them their own existence, and even so they decided to take out of production one of their cities to build a happiness wonder...

I know that having only two or three cities means that extinction is on the verge, but they could do some last heroic effort to survive, and not cripple their chances even more taking one of their last cities out of production to build a wonder they would never be able to finish.

But it was the AI. Not a human. So I think we must understand it.

	18-03-2002 23:45									#20
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Yes, the computer players need to build more harbors and much faster. I'd like to trade and I can't cuz they're on another continent and don't build harbors.

	19-03-2002 05:09									#21
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I've sen the AI build a FP in the same city as its palace. How's that for a waste of respources?

Another time I was at war with the French and they started building a wonder in a city that I was actively attacking and was one turn away from taking. Once I had taken that city, the French started building the same wonder in the next adjacent city, which I took two turns later. :sigh:

The AI sucks. I'm not expecting Deep Blue, just an AI that doesn't go out of its way to beat itself.