11-03-2002 06:34									#1
	Useful Fortresses Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

In my last game, I came across a defensive set up that finally gave me a good excuse for building Fortresses. What I did was build one in every other square in front of my border cities, then put a bombard unit in each one, along with a defensive unit. This left a gap in between the them, which the AI would try to go through in order to get to my city. And everytime it did, my bombard units, at least one on each side, would be able to get in a shot or two. By the time the enemy units reached my city, they were usually fairly damaged, and not as much of a threat. This worked especially well when I got Artillery, since with the extra range, I was able to get in more shots on the unit, making them easy pickings for my Cavalry.

Spacing them two squares apart also has the advantage of making them much easier to reinforce. It kind of works like Vel's Yang strategy, in that a unit can quickly move to the Fortress from the city, and still be able to Fortify, which gives it a 25% better defence on the next turn, when the enemy civ attacks.

	11-03-2002 08:38									#2
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That is a strategy I like to employ. There is a curious tale involving this strat, BTW.

I was playing as the romans and built a lot of fortresses on my border with Egypt. The only way they could reach me would be through Greece's territory. When they started to cross greek lands, I managed to get a military alliance with the greeks, and Egypt's armies were easily destroyed. I called this the "Red Sea Strategy".

	11-03-2002 10:29									#3
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It is nice to set up a killing field by building fortresses on hills and mountains. The AI will bypass strong points and advance on flat tiles where they are easy pickings. I still think that the fortresses are too weak.

	11-03-2002 16:51									#4
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If stacked death was brought back (which made it easier for the defender, I thought they were supposed to be making war harder in civ3?) or ZOC and a higher defence value, then the fortress might just become valuable.

	11-03-2002 22:35									#5
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quote: Originally posted by DrFell If stacked death was brought back (which made it easier for the defender, I thought they were supposed to be making war harder in civ3?) or ZOC and a higher defence value, then the fortress might just become valuable.

I didn't think they were valuable either but now I see that they can be. I always commented on how the AI would always go around a Fortress and very seldom attacked them. Now I see you can use that to your advantage, sort of like herding cattle. In the example I gave at first, having an open space between Fortresses means that's where the AI will try to come through, so it's quite easy to set up a killing field for it there. It's just a question of using them properly. You sort of have to think opposite from what you intend when building them, not trying to stop the AI, but instead directing it, making it go where you want it to.

	11-03-2002 22:51									#6
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A warrior in a fortress on a mountain defends at 4. That isn't bad, if you ask me. Fortress= x2, Mountain= x2.

Steele

	11-03-2002 23:00									#7
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But the thing is that the AI will seldom attack a Fortress on a Mountain, it's smart enough to know that it doesn't stand much of a chance of destroying the guarding unit inside it. So knowing that, you can use a string of Fortresses to more or less tell the AI where it is you want it to go. Leave an opening somewhere, and it will try to get through at that weak spot, where you just happen to have a stack of ambushing units waiting for it.

	12-03-2002 10:47									#8
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Sorry, my imagination isn't what it used to be...

Could someone post a pic of their use of fortresses in their game please

	12-03-2002 16:42									#9
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They still don't sound too useful for MP. I used to use fortresses when I was attacking in MP, to protect my units waiting outside cities. You could also use them for defence but they were less useful. But in civ3, they have like many other things been relegated to once in 100 game specialist functions.

	12-03-2002 18:49									#10
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I used one (well, two actually) at a major choke point basically connecting two large continents, mine to the north and the Egyptians to the south (an obvious use). They expended a few forces trying to get through...what was unfortunate for the AI is that they never attempted to cross the 3 squares of water separating our lands....

Once I acquired all the Egyptians land (within reason, I left them with a few ex-Roman cities), I would have liked to have gotten rid of them, but couldn't selectively pillage...didn't feel like destroying my mines/roads.

	12-03-2002 21:20									#11
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I generally use forts to set up kill zones, because the AI at least knows better than to throw its entire army at a fort on a mountain. They will therefore bypass the fort and end up out in the open where my attack troops can slaughter them. I have built a "maginot line" of sorts before, to force the fighting onto one particular front for a while. The AI took one look at the fort system, and sent all of its units on a long flank march to engage me elsewhere. When I have built up enough units, I issue forth from my forts to attack the enemy core, which will be minimally defended.

-Arrian

	13-03-2002 20:39									#12
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I use it in the hill or over the mountains

	16-03-2002 07:36									#13
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I think the correct defense factor of a warrior fortified in a mountain fortress would be 2.75.

	16-03-2002 16:38									#14
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When my Workers get finished with the main job, I build a couple of fortresses. One on each strat resource I got, as I always also have a unit on strat resource square. Then, a couple of others in strategic points of my empire.

	16-03-2002 18:26									#15
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Could someone explain to me ZOC? I find that my units in a fortess will not always attack the enemy as they march past. Do your units need to be fortified? I used this set up of a fortress in every other square but not a single shot was fired as the Egyptians headed over my borders and razed my cities (2 infantry, 2 cavalry, and 2 artillery in every fortess).

	17-03-2002 00:26									#16
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Don't forget, fortresses also act like barracks, and quicken healing.

R

	17-03-2002 01:03									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Mikel Could someone explain to me ZOC? I find that my units in a fortess will not always attack the enemy as they march past. Do your units need to be fortified? I used this set up of a fortress in every other square but not a single shot was fired as the Egyptians headed over my borders and razed my cities (2 infantry, 2 cavalry, and 2 artillery in every fortess).

ZoC doesn't really work very well in the game, sometimes they take a shot, sometimes they don't. I find usually they don't. And even if they do, it's only good for 1 hit point of damage. So I wouldn't worry about it, you're not missing much. Your best bet is to sentry a Catapult , or other bombard unit in them. At least they'll be able to take a pot shot at anyone passing. IMO, ZoC is useless and needs some definite reworking in the game.

	18-03-2002 03:31									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Sorry, my imagination isn't what it used to be... Could someone post a pic of their use of fortresses in their game please

These fortresses are used to protect resources, and the forward fortress provides a haven for cannon.
http://www.crowncity.net/civ3/Defense.htm


In this example, the fortresses create an impregnible barrier.
http://www.crowncity.net/civ3/MaginotLine.htm

	18-03-2002 04:00									#19
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Thanks Zachriel, good examples

	18-03-2002 04:00									#20
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quote: ZoC doesn't really work very well in the game, sometimes they take a shot, sometimes they don't. I find usually they don't.

Thats a bit of an illusion. They do take a shot every time they can. You only see the hits.

For some reason Firaxis decided not to show the misses on zone of control attacks. A mistake considering how many people think the units are trying to fire. The same for coastal defenses. You never see the damn things fire even when they take a hit on one of your own ships so they seem even more worthless than they really are.

I set up a city with two fortresses as redoubts in one game. It was my only city on the Japanese continent and I wanted to keep it as a landing zone if I ever went to war with them again. Never got to see the forts in action because the Japanese never went to war with me again in that one. I never picked on them either as it was more convenient to fight the Romans and then the French.

	18-03-2002 08:27									#21
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I once had a massive line of Fortresses when i had a WW1 Type war. I'm not sure whether it was really the best idea, but the situation was i had a ton of defense units (Infantry when I upgraded) but not got tanks yet. I didnt want the Japs getting into my mainline and start playing havok pilliging. I also kinda hoped i'd get a WW1 situation but it didnt really work.

	18-03-2002 18:33									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Rothy I once had a massive line of Fortresses when i had a WW1 Type war. I'm not sure whether it was really the best idea, but the situation was i had a ton of defense units (Infantry when I upgraded) but not got tanks yet. I didnt want the Japs getting into my mainline and start playing havok pilliging. I also kinda hoped i'd get a WW1 situation but it didnt really work.

WWI didn't work very well in real life either. If you want to attack with infantry, you need a lot of artillery stacked with infantry. Big stacks.

It's still fun to build lines of fortification. And I'm sure it helped keep out enemy pillagers.

	19-03-2002 05:03									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Zachriel WWI didn't work very well in real life either. If you want to attack with infantry, you need a lot of artillery stacked with infantry. Big stacks. It's still fun to build lines of fortification. And I'm sure it helped keep out enemy pillagers.

It's especially fun when you have some colorless units hanging out in the fortresses, along with the regular troops. If the Fortresses are set up in such a way that any interloper has to pass by a couple of them, then it's open season on any stray Settlers trying to pass through your territory.

	19-03-2002 09:17									#24
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i tried that once, fortressing up a long border, but somehow america's borders expanded OVER the fully loaded fortresses and they kicked me out of my own defences.

another reason military occupation should be allowed.

	19-03-2002 09:20									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Über KruX i tried that once, fortressing up a long border, but somehow america's borders expanded OVER the fully loaded fortresses and they kicked me out of my own defences. another reason military occupation should be allowed.

Or a reason you can't play one dimentional strategies and expect everything to go swimmingly.

Salve

	19-03-2002 11:11									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Über KruX i tried that once, fortressing up a long border, but somehow america's borders expanded OVER the fully loaded fortresses and they kicked me out of my own defences. another reason military occupation should be allowed.

If you have colorless units, you can still hold onto the fortresses, even though your regular units get kicked out.

	21-03-2002 18:27									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Über KruX i tried that once, fortressing up a long border, but somehow america's borders expanded OVER the fully loaded fortresses and they kicked me out of my own defences. another reason military occupation should be allowed.

It is allowed. For the shortterm during war, you can station your troops anywhere. For the midterm, you can capture cities. However, for the longterm, you'll need culture.

Examples:
Roman forts on the frontier: They built cities to feed these forts.
Medieval forts: Built near towns.
Civil War forts: Built around cities.
WWI forts: Structured around railheads.

Towns are required to build and supply forts throughout history.
Longterm health of forts requires investment from the center of the civilization. When the civilization is in retreat culturally, then the forts are often abandoned.

	21-03-2002 20:46									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Willem If you have colorless units, you can still hold onto the fortresses, even though your regular units get kicked out.

How does one create colorless units other than the Privateer?

	22-03-2002 01:35									#29
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quote: Originally posted by dunk999 How does one create colorless units other than the Privateer?

Just create a unit, or use an existing one if you like, and give it the Hidden Nationality ability in the editor. To copy a unit, just grab the Civ3MultiTool. There's also some unit graphics available over at Civ Fanatics you can use, if you don't want the unit to look like one of the current ones. There's one I really like, done by a guy named Dark Sheer, called the Bandit. It's a horse unit, like the old west outlaws. He's done a very nice job with it.