11-03-2002 17:50									#1
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I've been having the hardest time taking Thebes. I have 7 veteran legionaries at full strength attacking Thebes that has one regular pikeman and Thebes is built on plains. After the dust clears all my legionaries are dead and the pikeman is Elite (3/5).
Dang, firk, blast!

Is this normal? What boni are at work here?

Robert

	11-03-2002 18:11									#2
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Yes this is normal. I suggest that you build at least 15 legionaries before attempting to take a city.

	11-03-2002 19:17									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 Yes this is normal. I suggest that you build at least 15 legionaries before attempting to take a city.

The problem was not the pikeman. I've been taking Egyptian cities with pikeman with considerable ease. The only difference as far as I can tell is that this is the Capital city of Thebes.
I could have been lucky up till now, I suppose.

BTW I play regent level.

Robert

	11-03-2002 19:48									#4
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Fortified unit = 25% bonus
Walls or 7-12 pop = 50% bonus
13+ pop = 100% bonus

Now, maybe since capitol uses city graphic which is one size bigger then actual pop, could have somethibng with it.

So 1-6 pop capital maybe has extra 50% bonus (as it was 7-12pop)


P.S.
This is just speculation.

	11-03-2002 20:04									#5
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also, I believe each building and citizen adds 16 to the defense value.


Let's say thebes has population 10 with 10 Buildings.

The Pikeman is fortified


50% bonus from city size
320% bonus from buildings and pop
25% bonus from fortification

all in all, the defender would have a defense value of nearly 12 , or maybe my calculations are out ?????

	11-03-2002 20:15									#6
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Aha, interesting. I suspected this question might lead to what I looked for in the manual, namely an in-depth explanation of the defense boni.

I will spy again on Thebes tonight.

Hm, bombarding a city and destroying buildings actually lowers the defense value of the defenders? Interesting and well programmed. Very realistic.

I generally use conquests of other cities as a yardstick. They must have been underdeveloped.

Robert

	11-03-2002 20:15									#7
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I agree with Player1, including the part about the Capitol using a larger city graphic. I've always suspected that the Capitol gets an additional 50% bonus. So, if Thebes is a size 8, it would have a 100% bonus. That pikeman defends as a 6, double your attacking legions. Ouch. Use some catapults... or build some horsemen and use them (in large numbers) first. Some will die, some will retreat and you WILL knock off some hit points. Then send in the legions.

-Arrian

	11-03-2002 20:20									#8
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Kailhun, to get an in depth view of the combat system, check out the editor , is has the relevant defensive values in there.

	11-03-2002 20:21									#9
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Aha, interesting. I suspected this question might lead to what I looked for in the manual, namely an in-depth explanation of the defense boni. Please continu.

I will spy again on Thebes tonight and wait for the dice to favour me.

Hm, bombarding a city and destroying buildings actually lowers the defense value of the defenders? Interesting and well programmed. Very realistic.

I generally use conquests of other cities as a yardstick. They must have been underdeveloped.

Robert

	12-03-2002 13:02									#10
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On the first turn tonight, the dice favoured me and the pikeman was killed by the first legionary. Now Thebes is a city of 1 with a harbour and barracks, but no growth. Pride truly does come before the fall.

Robert

BTW All of Egypt has fallen beneath the sandal of my Roman armies. Victory is mine!

	13-03-2002 00:42									#11
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Luck, this is the only possible answer.

	13-03-2002 06:18									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Rothy also, I believe each building and citizen adds 16 to the defense value. Let's say thebes has population 10 with 10 Buildings. The Pikeman is fortified 50% bonus from city size 320% bonus from buildings and pop 25% bonus from fortification all in all, the defender would have a defense value of nearly 12 , or maybe my calculations are out ?????

I don't think this is quite right. I'm not an expert, but I believe the defense values for buildings and citizens are only used to determine whether or not bombardment destroys a bldg or kills a citizen.

They don't add to unit defenses.

The defense values of bldgs and citizens are compared to the bombardment value of the attacking catapult/cannon/artillery. So higher values for bldgs just means those buildings are harder to destroy, I think.

The only defense value given is from buildings that have the add defense value flags marked in the editor, such as walls.

As for more bldgs and citizens, I don't think that affects combat between units (except for the size 7+ and 12+ bonuses). But it might affect bombardment, so in a big city with lots of buildings, the chance of hitting a unit is small but you have a good chance of killing citizens or destroying buildings. Bombarding a small size 1 city with no improvements will only hit units. Since bombardment can't destroy a city or non-existent buildings, all successful bombards will hit the defending unit (unless at 1 hp).

hope that makes sense.

	13-03-2002 06:45									#13
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"Bombarding a small size 1 city with no improvements will only hit units. Since bombardment can't destroy a city or non-existent buildings, all successful bombards will hit the defending unit (unless at 1 hp)."

The chance of hitting a unit is not increased by a lack of buildings, the chance of failure is. Any bombard that would have killed a citizen/destroyed a building fails.

	13-03-2002 14:24									#14
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quote: Originally posted by simwiz2 "Bombarding a small size 1 city with no improvements will only hit units. Since bombardment can't destroy a city or non-existent buildings, all successful bombards will hit the defending unit (unless at 1 hp)." The chance of hitting a unit is not increased by a lack of buildings, the chance of failure is. Any bombard that would have killed a citizen/destroyed a building fails.

That what I meant, only me not write it good.
But seriously, thanks. That's actually a lot clearer than the way I wrote it.