11-03-2002 19:53									#1
	Tech Gifting Query Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'm trying for my first Deity win via AC. It's 1885, I'm in Democracy, getting a tech every 3 turns currently. I received a suggestion elsewhere on this forum to use tech gifiting to keep my beaker costs down.

I do downloaded the Tech Gifting piece from the Great Library and still need to study it a bit before implementing. Gotta say, this is one of the most counter-intuitive concepts I've found in the game.

Here's the problem...

I'm Orange and Supreme. That means the Key Civ is Purple. But I killed that civ! Remaining in the game are --

Zulu = green
Persian = light blue
Celts = white

Since Purple doesn't exist, I can't gift them.

Holy Missing Colors, Batman! We've killed off our Key Civ!

The Tech Gifting text reads in part -- "When a civ is destroyed, your Power Rating may chnage. If the destroyed civ occupies the Turn Position corresponding to your new PR, you will be much higher in techs (since they now have none) and would have to pay the ighest possible beaker cost."

That's the only reference I found (quick scan only) to changes relating to dead civs.

If the Power Rating chart shifts when civs are deleted, that means my civ (Orange) would shift to the top, making me my own key civ. That would mean gifting until I drop in the ratings, to drop my beaker cost. That just feels WRONG!! (I want, I NEED to be Supreme!!)

I'd like some insight on this before I start gifting techs to my opponents. Can anyone tell me whether -- and, more importantly, exactly how -- the Tech Gifting technique is used in this situation?



If it's of any help, I'm attaching the current gamesave...

Attachment: -jrabbit 1885.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	11-03-2002 20:21									#2
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If you're trying for your first Deity win.

SCREW TECH GIFTING. IT IS NOT NECESSARY.
Work on increasing your beaker count.

The only time (late in the game anyway) that you should be doing this is when you're playing OCC or trying for a record launch date.
Other than that you have plenty of turns to win.

Be supreme, be happy. CRUSH THEM
Watch out for enemy diplos/spys that will swarm you to get those last few techs to build their spaceship.

Rich

	12-03-2002 11:41									#3
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Jrabbit, I think you're right; the only way to avoid paying the maximum science-cost penalty will be for you to drop into second place on the power graph. Your power rating can change when a civ is eliminated, but only if that civ was stronger than you. Your orange civ will not "shift to the top." Your own color doesn't matter (more or less); what matters is your power graph position. As long as you're supreme, your key civ will be purple, and purple, being extinct, has no techs. Moreover, gifting techs isn't likely to change your position on the power graph, although in a close situation it can. Population is usually the main determinant of power graph position. I agree, the whole thing is hugely inintuitive.

This is why if you expect to be supreme and you really want to win, you should play a purple civ. You won't get a bonus, but you won't pay the much larger penalties either.

RAH is right. Pay the penalty, stay supreme, and crush them.

	12-03-2002 11:50									#4
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Just 2 more cents: I rarely have a large empire (25 cities max, mostly, and often fewer) and am not trade-crazy. I thus rarely get techs any quicker than every three turns. This has never proven a barrier to winning at Deity. Go for it, and good luck!

	12-03-2002 18:13									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Thanx to RAH, debeest, and Rufus T.

Proceeding to pile up techs, hold my lead, and prep for the spaceship build. Moving from trade to shield production. Got miniaturization (platforms) and Hoovers coming 2 techs from now (stockpiling freights). Fortifying cities.

UN has gotten me peace with all 3 civs
(We'll see how long that lasts!)

If interested, game updates (and 2 recent savegames) can be found in the "Positioning to conquer a city" thread in this forum.

	14-03-2002 21:17									#6
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Jrabbit
'They' told you everything that matters. May I sum up?
1) Tech gifting is not necessary to win at Deity level.
2) If you wish to forget about tech gifting, choose the purple civ (you get no bonus, but you don't get any malus either, and that is much more important).
3) If you are trying to be recordholder of some kind (especially playing OCC), then read and reread samson 's masterpiece. It will teach you that you can get even better results by choosing another colour and gifting techs to the right civ at the right time (which means gifting to the purple civ as soon as you get supreme).

	14-03-2002 21:53									#7
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"Trying to be a record-holder" ??????


I'm just a poor clown trying to win at Deity.

So even though it's unlikely I'll return to lower level play, I have downloaded Samson's piece. (The research some ppl have done in trying to get inside this game is just amazing!)

	16-03-2002 15:56									#8
	little question about techgifting...on the edge Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

In my record-attempt game I'm currently in future techs...
Techgifting already helped me killing some of my research costs but now I only have 2 techs left the Indians don't have and a dozen future techs.this makes my techcost go from 50 to 52 beakers a tech.If I would give the last 2 techs to the indians what will happen to my techcosts?will the negative bonuses continue when I get ahead in future techs(since the AI is totally incapable of science research) ?

5200 beakers or 5000 beakers for the next tech really makes the difference between 1 turn and 2 turns...(and I need the 1 turn)

Shade

	17-03-2002 01:51									#9
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==> already discovered the answer=> tech costs will kill me.
(my key civ is 'the Indians' )
Fut Tech 14 => 52 beakers/tech==>5304 beakers
(that's almost impossible at 0% science... I only get 5064beakers)

Shade

	18-03-2002 13:29									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

If you're supreme, the purple civ is your key civ. If you give the key civ ALL of your techs, your science cost drops to the maximum basic cost of 26 beakers per tech-number. That should drop your current science cost to about 2600 to 2700 per tech. Whether this will still work now that you're doing future tech, I don't know, but I certainly think you should try.

	18-03-2002 18:28									#11
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I think mapsize really matters...
In my record-attempt game(and all the other games I normally play) I use a BIG map(100x100 I think) and I succeeded killing most of my techcosts once by just givving all to the indians.at that moment my costs were 50 beakers/tech.
What I noticed now was that
A) I can't give the AI Future techs
B) the moment I get 14 techs ahead the beakercost goes up to 52/tech
(At the moment I had 12 future techs+2 that I didn't give to the indians my techcost went up=> gave them the 2 techs=> beakercosts back to 50=> Future tech 14 back up to 52)

=> current costs:5256beakers

Shade

	18-03-2002 22:44									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Quite right, map size matters. However, although I don't remember whether Samson or anyone ever did a thorough study other than mid-size, I was pretty sure that large size doesn't double the base science cost. However, if you've given the Indians all of your techs and it's still 50 beakers per tech#, I'd have to change my mind. Are you playing on a larger map than the "large" model? Maybe that would explain the extra-high cost.

	18-03-2002 23:36									#13
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I'll take a look at it but I'm 95% sure it is big like in self defined 100x100.

Shade

	19-03-2002 01:21									#14
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I have a theory - I'm too lazy to test it out and verify/deny it, but it 'feels' right ...

The Git[1] Hypothesis When you click the 'custom' button to set up a non-standard world size those game parameters that are changed by the size of the world take the values appropriate to the radio button that is checked.

- ie if 'Small map' is checked it doesn't matter that you have gone 'Custom' and made the map 100x100 or whatever.
Anyone got any evidence either for or against this???

	19-03-2002 14:40									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Just thought of a 'non-standard' use of key tech info --
in a recent game I got 'lucky' with a series of techs from huts and when I acquired MPE I found that the dratted Persians were already researching Philo (I had just started it the turn before) - so I gave the Persians every tech I had - did the same to my key-civ and finally beat the Persians to the punch.

Others may have done this, but it was the first time I had used tech costing theory in this fashion....

	19-03-2002 23:20									#16
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SG,

Is tech gifting in this way a genuine advantage? Suppose a civ was 6 techs behind you and going to beat you to Philosophy. Even if they get it first, they'll only gain two techs, and thus still be 4 behind you. By giving them all your 6 tech advantage, even if you get Philosophy first you'll only be 2 ahead.

Is this worthwhile? I guess it depends on where the other 5 civs are. But assuming the civ in question is the world tech leader, then is it worth gifting techs to beat them to Philosophy?

	20-03-2002 12:45									#17
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campo
What matters is the tech you want to acquire AFTER Phil (imagin that the tech is Monotheism and it takes you about 20 turns to research a tech: being #1 to Phil means 20 turns alone with vet crusaders ).